I Am Because We Are
New Approaches to Sustainable Heritage Practices with Jonathan Doe and Andrea Hiott
In this episode, Andrea and Jonathan Bill Doe, a PhD candidate from the Brandenburgische Technische Universität, as they explore Jonathan's research on the Keta Lagoon and urban gardening in Ghana. Initially focusing on Jonathan's intriguing master's project, 'Keta Lagoon: Uncovering Suppressed Heritage Practices for Sustainable Wetland Management,' they delve into the complexities of heritage, sustainability, and cultural practices.
Jonathan shares insights from his extensive academic journey, his practical experiences as a tour guide, and his observations on Ghana's urban and heritage landscapes. They discuss the nuances of colonial history, local knowledge holders, and sustainable practices like the 'Atsidza' fishing method. Moving forward, Jonathan talks about his PhD project involving urban gardening and sociotechnical imaginaries in postcolonial Ghana, highlighting the importance of integrating traditional practices into modern sustainability efforts. This enlightening conversation reveals how historical, cultural, and environmental factors intertwine, emphasizing the necessity of inclusive and thoughtful heritage management.
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00:00 Introduction to Jonathan Bill Doe
00:54 Jonathan's Academic Journey
02:20 Tour Guiding and Heritage Interest
05:18 Philosophical and Historical Insights
06:27 Keta Lagoon and Suppressed Heritage
21:47 Colonial Impact and Local Knowledge
38:30 Christianity and Colonial Influence
38:55 Decolonial Philosophy and Lagoon Management
39:42 Beyond Dichotomies: Historical and Modern Practices
41:34 Relationality in African Philosophy
43:05 Sustainability and Economic Assumptions
47:11 Fishing Practices in the Lagoon
58:42 Ownership and Commons in Lagoon Fishing
01:01:49 Urban Gardening and Post-Colonial Ghana
01:12:33 Gardening as Heritage and Local Beliefs
01:14:23 Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions
Read Jonathan's Paper: https://bluepapers.nl/index.php/bp/ar...
More about Jonathan and his work: https://www.b-tu.de/en/fg-technikwiss...
The other paper we discuss: https://asq.africa.ufl.edu/wp-content...
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About this podcast:
Beyond Dichotomy started as research conversations & has expanded beyond my own academic pursuits towards noticing the patterns that connect across traditional divides. When I started my studies, there was so much I wanted to explore that I was told I shouldn't explore because it didn't fit into this or that discipline, but having studied and worked in so many fields, those barriers no longer made sense. The same felt true relative to passions and love. So I decided to open myself to all of it beyond traditional distinctions, towards learning and development. This podcast is where those voices gather together in one space as I try and notice the patterns that connect. It's part of my life work and research, but it's also something I hope to share with you and to invite you to share your perspective and position. Thank you for being here. The main goal is to have conversations across disciplines to understand how our approach to life and cognition might address some of the urgent divides we face today. By love and philosophy, I mean the people, passions, and ideas that move us, shape the trajectories of our lives, and co-create our wider social landscapes. Partly due to my trajectory in philosophy, technology, & the cognitive sciences, I’m hoping to better observe binary distinctions in our academic & personal lives: What positive roles have these structures played? How might rethinking these structures & their parameters open new paths & ecological potentials?
TRANSCRIPT:
I am because we are
[00:00:00] Hey everyone. This is a PhD talk with Jonathan Bill Doe. And he's one of my colleagues at the technology Institute. And he's doing a very interesting PhD about urban gardening in Ghana, which is where he's from. But we talk mostly in this one, about another project he did, he has like a lot of different degrees. From Ghana.
And now also from here are masters in, heritage. And some of you probably know I also work in areas of thinking about cities and heritage. And phenomenological heritage and so on. So this is more from that side of things, but it's really interesting to think about sustainability in the way that Jonathan does.
So I hope you enjoy this talk.
Andrea Hiott: Okay. Hi, Jonathan. So good to see you. Thanks for doing this today.
Hello Andrea, good to see you too! So I want to start with talking about your master's project, but you're now a [00:01:00] PhD working on another very interesting project, which we'll get to. So this is towards a PhD talk, but the paper that kind of caught my interest, is based on your master's and it's called. Keta Lagoon, uncovering suppressed heritage practices for sustainable wetland management.
Hope I got that right. You can correct me if I didn't. So I guess just to start, um, maybe we could just learn a little bit about you. I know you studied philosophy of history at the University of Ghana. Um, and then you got an MA in museum and heritage studies before you did this. Masters, which is focused around the Keta Lagoon.
So I guess I would just like to hear about that process where you're from and studying in Ghana and then coming to Germany to do this
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you. You did a bit of digging on the internet, I come from Ghana. Yes. First degree was in philosophy and in, in Ghana [00:02:00] you have the option of minoring, which means you do less, you know, coursework on another subject. And in my case it was history, so I would say that I minored in history and majored in philosophy.
Andrea Hiott: Okay.
Jonathan Bill Doe: So that was my first degree.
And then after that, um, I did a bit of tour guiding for a couple of years. And so, and you must be aware also that Ghana has some, at least two sites on the UNESCO World Heritage Sites. Yeah, and so I took visitors to those places and used my undergraduate knowledge and history to interpret, you know, the history and the culture to people.
And so I got more and more interested in, you know, this museum and heritage stuff. [00:03:00] And so that was when I moved to the Archaeology Department in University of Ghana, which has a program there. MP in Museum and Heritage Studies, so, so that's why I did that.
Andrea Hiott: So what was the, what were you doing the tour guide and interpretation and things, was it at the UNESCO Heritage site or?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So what I did, it was like a free freelance tour guiding. So I signed up with a couple of tour agents in Ghana. And so as and when they had visitors, they would call me up. Give me an itinerary and we'll have a driver and then we hit the road and follow the itinerary.
I do the interpretation and so on, but there are onsite tour guide who also did do the, did the talking or [00:04:00] interpreted that. Yes, but in between, but while we were on the road lots of interesting things to see. So I interpreted those ones and they have Sites that we visited.
Yes, I interpreted those one also to, to them based on my knowledge. Um, so the ma in archeology department, you know, further deepened my understanding and, you know, museum and heritage that studies uh, yet, still I was not satisfied. So I got more curious about what is this UNESCO World heritage in the staff.
So I started digging. And that's where I landed at BTU to do an MP. So like a true
Andrea Hiott: philosopher, you were questioning and looking deeper and
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, well, yeah, sounds like that. So that's how, um, I came to BTU and did, um, the coursework for the MP in [00:05:00] World Heritage. And while I guess
Andrea Hiott: If you just search online for UNESCO heritage programs, BTU is Probably one of the first, one of the ones to come up, maybe one of the only ones.
So it makes sense that, you would find that if you were looking around.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So while I was doing the course for under the World Heritage Program here, then I took a course on the philosophy of nature.
Andrea Hiott: A very good course. Yes. Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. So I got more and more interested. That's when my MBA project shifted to the Creta Lagoon.
Then I was looking at the history, cultural stuff connected to the Creta Lagoon, and also how does that or did that interact with the Ramsar Conventions,
Andrea Hiott: and
Jonathan Bill Doe: [00:06:00] especially how the scientists the, or the ecologists, Who worked on the site and drill management plan for the site engaged the cultural and the historical values of the people and the Lagoon.
So that's how come that's what's how my,
Andrea Hiott: Well, it's really interesting for me. I wonder, had you spent time at the Keta Lagoon beforehand and like, what was your experience of it before? How did you think about this particular area?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Okay. Interesting. Actually, I grew up there.
Andrea Hiott: Oh,
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah. I grew up. Um, so if you look at it, that's a lot. Kota Lagoe on the map.
It's between the Atlantic Ocean. It, um, or Kota itself is between the Atlantic Ocean, and the Kota Lagoe is a land stream in [00:07:00] between the, the two water bodies.
Andrea Hiott: Is it the biggest wetland in N'ga'a? Yes, exactly. Okay.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. So, sometimes I pride myself of growing up on an island. Yeah. So, few, you walk a few kilometers, you are either at, on the other side of the water body that has the Atlantic Ocean,
Andrea Hiott: and
Jonathan Bill Doe: then the opposite side, the northern side, and there is the Petal Lagoon.
So, I interacted with that growing up. Yeah, so, And then for the MA project, then by then I had specific questions in mind. And so I went there to interact with some of the knowledge holders.
Andrea Hiott: That's an important, that's an important term, knowledge holders. So we, but before we get into that, I wonder when you were doing your tour guide stuff and your interpretation, [00:08:00] if you were noticing already that there were certain suppressed kind of heritages or, um, if some of the themes that you ended up exploring in the master were already part of that questioning.
I mean, were you seeing that maybe the way the visitors came or the way it was presented by people who weren't? From the area who weren't knowledge holders in the way that you mean was different from those who were knowledge holders or had those themes kind of come to mind already?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. I would say that it was.
Um, I became more and more aware of them in the, in the history in the history course. Yeah. Sometimes you grew up in an area, you don't question a lot of things, but the, um, by the time we were taking the history course, a lot of debate had gone [00:09:00] on decolonization, colonization and so on and so forth. So some of those readings were presents.
In our history class. Yeah. Um, regrettably, you know, going back to high school or secondary school, as we call it, yeah, not much of it was present in, in our readings. So I became more aware of this suppressed nature of the knowledge holders and their knowledge and history, you know, more in the history class.
Andrea Hiott: Okay, I was going to ask you if in your philosophy, if you'd had what we might call African philosophy or Africa, you sent me this great paper, which I'm going to link to. And in that paper, he talks about in his education, which was a lot. earlier than yours, I'm assuming, that he didn't have any of kind of what you're talking about now.
I mean, you're talking about it in heritage, but of the African perspective or [00:10:00] African philosophy, it was more Western philosophy. So I wonder when you studied philosophy, was there more of that or was it the same kind of Western curriculum that he talks about in that paper?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, um, I think it was a blend. It was a blend of both world, and also, um, most of the African, you know, philosophers like Ruidu, Djechi, Kwame Djechi, and so on. Yeah, they had a specific, you know, goal and the goal was basically to question their own culture and also question the Western, you know, philosophy and so on. So it's, what we say is a blend of this world is what they were articulating as a
Andrea Hiott: So for example, the paper you sent me, did you read that in school?
Was that what that would have [00:11:00] been part of what you were learning? Exactly. Okay. Yes. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So there was already, yeah, this talk about which, yeah, I guess I'm trying to figure out if it was. Like the philosophy and the history are connected. I mean, they're connected even in your paper.
I was started thinking a lot about how the ways we think and the philosophies we build have a lot to do with, um, the actions that we sustain and the ways that we sustain them. Um, so they're not disconnected, but I wonder in your school, before we get to the paper that if it was already like, so, so, so these were the same kind of things in philosophy and in history, were they connected or was it a different writers or different ways of looking at it or?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Different writers.
Andrea Hiott: Okay. Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Different writers. Because, um, you know, the educational system has in [00:12:00] most, most often, you know, follow the Western structure and then the divisions in the knowledge system also were very present, even up to now. The debates about humanities and science, sciences. And so on.
And I guess the benefit that we had out of those kinds of debate was that they introduced what they call core subjects in the secondary school or high school. So if somebody who was on the science track, you know, doing the pure sciences, chemistry, physics, and so on, there was a common cause, you know, called social studies, then there you had a bit of opportunity to look into sociology.
And then they had a bit of history. But by then the historians were quarreling with that. [00:13:00] History lesson be subsumed in sociology, you know, so there was that thing that what was for what was called core subjects. And so it's, um, that the division was sharper, even at the university level, because, you the University of Ghana was established in 1948.
And 1948, Ghana was still under the colonial, British colonial system. So it's, the structure was still in place. And it was in 1957 that Ghana gained independence. And that's where the the emergence of African philosophers. Who were questioning their own culture and the Western culture, you know, began to articulate their views to their writing and so on, you know, so, so, the historians were different from.[00:14:00]
the philosophers. What was key to the African philosophers was that they will go to already written bodies of knowledge, like anthropology, history, and begin to take concepts Practices, you know, from there and then to do the conceptual clarification questioning from there. So they were not actually historians, but they were using very much historical sources.
They were using linguistic sources, you know, to extract, you know, the concepts and practices. And articulating African philosophy, and also using very much Western language in some cases.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, language is a really important thing, and as I was, [00:15:00] that makes a lot of sense what you said. It's really interesting, because in the book, Um, in the paper you sent and your paper too, there's this, always this interplay between looking back at history and then, and within the history is the practice and the thinking in a way of the philosophy.
So I can see there's two different approaches in the way you said, but then it seems very hard to completely disentangle all of that because you know better, but I'm imagining this So you have this colonial college university and these kind of set ways, these systems, these paths that people are following, and then people start questioning them, but they haven't really thought about all these other historical paths that of course are there and important and influencing, but maybe haven't been had like people haven't focused on them and written about them and created, um, all this literature about them or had they, I don't know.
It's kind of, was it a time where, um, [00:16:00] Where everyone had to re, sort of rewrite their own histories in a way, in terms of what was externally represented. Of course, the histories as lived are different, but in terms of what's externally represented.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, I think on that front, there are two shifts in historical writing.
The first was, More or less a response to the colonial history and some, what some of British historians was saying about African history, you know, because, um, the forms of writing, um, it's, you know, to use Roman letters, you
Andrea Hiott: know, and then leave,
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah, leave document and so on and so forth. This was very, you know, typical, you know, understanding of the [00:17:00] British philosophers And so standing on that, they say that Africans, you know, had no Africans had no history until they had contact with Europeans.
And, you know, because it was through the Europeans and Africans. Learned how to write, and so on. So, the history, those kinds of writing, and so on, what will now become of those things, what they will call history, or recognize as
Andrea Hiott: history.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Then the Africans who were trained as historians, you know, also responded to that.
Yeah, one of the interesting things, one of them said was that, well, Herodotus was recognized as the father of history in, in, in the Western canons. Yeah, but what Herodotus was [00:18:00] doing, really, was collecting oral histories or oral stories from people. So if Africans can also write or collect their own aura, then that should also be recognized as history.
So
Andrea Hiott: I love that. That's very interesting. It also relates a lot to the language part of all of this, and also this dynamic aspect that is talked about in that paper of the differences, right, between these kinds of learning styles and philosophies. And, um, yeah, I really liked that, that was brought up.
And also that, Yes. I mean, that's Herodotus is kind of what we look to in this Western canon, but there could have been many other people in there doing the same similar thing, right. And saying similar things and even expressing that as their language. It's just that it hasn't been, you know, canonized.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Yeah. [00:19:00] And so the other shifts in the historical writing was more or less about nations. You know, here, um, if you take Ghana, for example, the same thing applies to most African countries. You know, it's more or less a collection of ethnic groups, and all these ethnic groups can also be recognized as states.
Because they have their own chiefs and their own protocols practices and so on. In some cases, they are sharply different from other ethnic groups. So here was, um, a moment in 1957 and the 1960s for the rest of the African country. And then the president who emerged, the knight. All these ethnic group in the form of what [00:20:00] was, or what can be represented, can be said to be a European state or a European nation, you know?
So then the history had to be told or written in a way that would bee, you know, the people and there they use, um, yeah, they use the museums, you know, and so on and so forth. And I think if you read Laura, Jen, Jane Smith. That's what she sometimes called authorized heritage, you know, discourse.
Yeah. Although I have some differences on that, but that takes us away from what we understand. So there, these were two shifts in the historical writing in the, in African history.
Andrea Hiott: So I'm trying to, so you grew up in this area, which I didn't know. So this is very interesting in the area that you wrote about and all of these themes are part of.
of this paper and of your work and your ongoing work. [00:21:00] So I'm trying to imagine you're growing up there and you're part of, I mean, like, it's your life. And at some point, I guess, in the way that philosophy does, we turn our attention on our own, our own life. But you're doing this in a really particular way with the Quetzal Lagoon.
I wonder, like, a little bit about that process for you. What was it like to start to think of that area that you knew so well from a perspective of writing about it academically? Through these, all these lenses, was it kind of easy for you to do or, yeah, I don't know. What was it like?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, the sketching was easy.
Yeah, because, um, yeah, I knew there was something to be said. But again, one has to touch on a bit of the colonial history and where that's where [00:22:00] we may tease out the suppression, you know, because there were the authorities had to devise certain ways to rule the people or to govern the people. One form was direct rule where there was a British colonial officer or commissioner.
At a local area, instructing the people as to what to do and what not to do. Um, but they were understaffed, you know, so they could not do that all over the place. And then they came up with another strategy, which was indirect rule. So there, what they did was to identify certain leaders in the respective community or ethnic groups.
and then rule through them. And in these leaders, in most cases were [00:23:00] chiefs. But like I said earlier, you know, it's not homogeneous and not all ethnic groups or communities have chiefs. And in some areas they had priests, you know, priests of the land or the river and so on and so forth. And that was their leader.
But in the indirect rule system, the thinking was that there must be a chief. And so when there was none, they had to empower somebody to be the leader. And then that starts the distortion. So the knowledge, the connection to water, but with the land and so on then the local, um, now had to struggle to find a way, but there was this dominant, you know, presence of [00:24:00] the British colonial authority, empowering one over the other.
You know, so for me, that's where the form of suppression in the, So now I knew there was something to engage. Where do you trace it? That's where the difficulty was. Especially when I read the the management plan for the lagoon.
Andrea Hiott: So that, like for people who don't know about the heritage, so what was, I mean, could you explain what, just like very briefly, so they, had it been designated as a heritage site or what was happening?
Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. So, Peta Lagoon was designated or is designated as a Ramsar Heritage Site.
Andrea Hiott: That was in like the 80s, right? 1988 or something. Yes. Yes. Or something. Okay.
Jonathan Bill Doe: I think 18, 1988 or so. [00:25:00] Yeah. But the management plan and the research, you know, took off significantly from 1991. That's when the ecologists and the natural scientists got involved with the research on the lagoon.
Andrea Hiott: So you kind of have this Western presence coming in and saying this is going to be a heritage site. I mean, is that fair to say, is that how it felt? I mean, it doesn't like you were grow, you were just being born and stuff probably, but, um, for the area around, yeah I guess I'm so, so I'm just trying to give people an idea.
You don't understand it's coming from people working there, but it's also being imposed in a way. Right. So how would you explain that?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. So RAM sub convention has. Um, practices or articles, you know,
the, [00:26:00] um, that people working there have to observe.
Andrea Hiott: Right. Because all heritage sites sort of have these rules and so on. And then this convention in particular. Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, exactly. So in this case, it's what we call the state's party. So the states, which is not what that was formed after independence.
with political leaders and so on and so forth. They had to appoint, you know, managers and so on to take care of this. And I think it's still
the case now it's under a ministry, you know, that hosts wildlife, you know, resources. So, and most of the people who end up in these offices, with the states, are trained in natural sciences. [00:27:00] And so on. So they become caretakers of this water body and then the surrounding areas that is quite distinct from the local people, although they are some of them may be part of the or come from the local community and so on.
So it's quite distinct.
Andrea Hiott: And this is all probably very complicated because it could seem, I mean, there's a lot of what I guess might seem like good things coming in terms of maybe jobs or attention or something to the area, but those could also be bad things. Yeah. So,
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah, so I was reading the management plan.
Then they had
a column where they talked about local community participation. So I took [00:28:00] a look at it. Um, and then given the history that was present in my mind and I experienced that, I began to ask what was the role of these people that I know of, you know, so, so that I can understand, first of all, given the nature of the structure where most scientists are not exposed to the cultural sociology and the history of the country, or they are trained purely In the natural science, I can understand why local participation would just mean the people who are readily available to take part in the management plan.
Andrea Hiott: You know,
Jonathan Bill Doe: so, so. That's for me, it's where there's suppression. Well, although sometimes I struggle if I should use the word suppression. Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. We can [00:29:00] talk about that word, but that's powerful what you just said, because I think actually I wanted to read the very first sentence of your paper of the one that was published in 2022 and it's current efforts to integrate heritage practices in the sustainable management of wetlands and post colonial nation states assume that these practices have always existed in the forms they are now.
So I think with what you just said and that sentence, we get into a really interesting place because it's not that people are necessarily trying to. Overlook things or assume things. I mean, that's kind of what an assumption is, but what you just said struck me because There's even within this kind of model that we were talking about, it's almost like participation itself means something to the people who have written those rules.
And it doesn't necessarily mean participation at this level of, um, of actually understanding what the practices are and what the sustain, what the heritage is, and that should be conserved. It's almost like that's getting [00:30:00] imposed, but people don't realize it, right? There's some very weird disconnect going on there that's very meaningful, I think.
Assumption, that word for some reason. stands out.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Um, so having the depth, um, to go beyond the surface to encounter these knowledge holders is, um, I think a methodological problem for, especially for those who are trained in the natural science sciences. Um, and also because the nature of the colonial engagement, most of them had lost a lot of their power.
And if I should say, maybe their relevance, direct relevance, you know, to the people. By the time we, we came up to independence. [00:31:00] You know, so, so there are layers and levels of the suppression, which are not directly obvious to people.
Andrea Hiott: Even to the people themselves who are being suppressed, which is, makes it even harder, I guess.
And yeah. Um, but maybe we can talk about sort of what you were trying to do or what you did do in your master's. So I know it's kind of impossible to summarize a master's in a sentence or something, but thank you. Um, maybe we can make it a little personal. So you, I feel like you, you noticed there was something going on there.
We don't know what to call it yet. Suppression is probably, we can talk about what that really means, but assumptions that were holding things down, right? Keeping things from being seen, um, That, as you point out in the paper, actually could be really productive for the goals of the whole heritage project, like the Wise Use Principle, which you talk about, or the very idea of [00:32:00] sustainability itself.
So there's this weird thing going on, which you point out in the paper, where The, or your thesis too, but this paper where there's a desire to sustain heritage and to be sustainable. And doing that is somehow not actually noticing that there were already practices that are the heritage that were sustainable.
So it's very strange, but maybe you can unpack it a little of like what you kind of had in mind.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Well, I think you articulated it very well. Yeah. But um, so, so let me just touch a bit on the Ramsa Convention and then come back to that. You know, so the Ramsa convention itself was, uh, established in 19 71, 20 years after, you know, that's um, 1992.
They recognized that cultural practices. And, you know, knowledge holders and so on that leave close to the water bodies [00:33:00] should be part of the management. So at the international level itself, there was that recognition. And what I'm now discovering is, you know, how then to get to the roots of these people that have these intricate knowledge systems connected to the water body and elevate that.
into the management plan that would attain the sustainability that is so much desired. So this is where the the problem is. So there's, first of all, there's a recognition that is relevant, but then how to get to the root of this. Which we've
Andrea Hiott: already touched on a few of the difficult layers. I mean, the language, the history the change in power, the, yeah, all of this.
There's so many factors there. And then this idea of the wise use principle, maybe we should talk about that a little bit because the example that you [00:34:00] give in the paper towards what we've been discussing is a fishing practice, which I won't even dare try to say, Ad Seetha, or.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Achicha.
Andrea Hiott: Achicha. Achicha. So, but before we get to that maybe we need to set up a few things like what a knowledge holder is and, well, I don't know.
What do you think? What, or should we just dive in to how that's an example?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Well, what I mean there basically is I have a specific example of this knowledge holder. For example, a diviner, you know, so if, or a fortune teller, these are not, these are things that are embodied. And in, in most cases they make an appeal to, you know, non physical things.
Andrea Hiott: Now that's different from the priests and the discussion about, because one very interesting part in all of this is the way that the lagoon the sort of male and female, um, deity that it [00:35:00] was or is, um, and how this was kind of completely overlooked and then, and that these, you call them priests, I think, in the paper?
I'm not sure. Yes. But these people weren't consulted at all or like brought into the process at all or, I mean, it's like not even recognized and it's such a. It's the body of water. So, yeah. Is that relative to this or is this something else, what you're talking about now?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. It's, it is relative to that, yeah.
So, there were priests priest, um, and then a diviner as well. So they all played, you know, or played different roles. Um, they, they, they played different roles at different times of the year.
Yeah. So I can talk about the diviner. Yeah,
Andrea Hiott: as you wish. It's just I was just trying to ground it that it's a very essential. I guess, isn't it you can't not really, I don't know. What would you say? [00:36:00] I'm putting words on things, but I imagine that the heritage of the people themselves coming up there, that this is in terms of the knowledge of the place that it holds, you wouldn't be able to separate these, what you're talking about, whether it's the diviner or the priest from it, however, in the way that it was, the way that it.
Has been, um, bureaucratized or whatever. None of this was represented. But maybe you can better unpack that a little bit. Like, how important was this, is this, for the people who are in this area historically?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Okay. Yeah. Historically it was important. But in contemporary times, um, a lot of power has been taken away from there.
Yeah, but so my point is, if Ramsa sees things that this is important on which I share, yeah, then we need to find a way to bring them back and [00:37:00] give them more visibility. So for example if there is a problem, somebody is sick or what have you, or something that's Um, no one or nobody can find an immediate explanation to, you know, they go to these places, the diviner to find, to inquire what's the issue, um, is that they cannot understand.
And they also have festivals and in that festival calendar, the diviner also plays a role in determining certain things about deities. About how people have to regulate themselves and so on and so forth. Now, so those, [00:38:00] um, ideas or suggestions that can come out of that practice. How then do they come up in regulating the lagoon?
How then do they come up in the management plan, you know, is where the, I'm trying to get at. And that is why I think it's relevant and can be, you know, sustainable. But there is also a very competing, you know, idea or practice, which is Christianity, you know. So majority, as of now, majority are Christians.
Now,
Andrea Hiott: and that's related to the colonial times too. So it's even more, it's complicated about how to disentangle that.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. So, but some [00:39:00] becoming more and more aware, especially when you take the decolonial philosophy, you know, philosophical projects questioning, you know, these. And I'm finding accommodation, you know, between the two, you know, system.
And so that, that's kind of the colonial project. The piece, the way to bring in the suggestions and practices and the knowledge that these diviners embody into the contemporary,
Andrea Hiott: you know,
Jonathan Bill Doe: management of the lagoon.
Andrea Hiott: This is really fascinating and kind of hard to hold. It's one reason I wanted to talk to you because it's kind of this beyond dichotomy thing, right?
Because we usually think of. This is either or, like, in the paper you talk about that you gave me, one of them, there's this notion of historical and modern that's very important, but we don't often think of it like that. It's more like, okay, there must be [00:40:00] people living in this area who still have all of these practices and still, um, are completely 100%, um, following along with the diviners and the priests and they don't know about the other.
Or, there's Christians who are completely modern. And in truth, as is pointed out in your paper and the one you sent me, it's always kind of a mix, right? People might be aware of both and using them in different ways. Also there's this whole historical suppression or whatever we want to call it, assumption that's guiding.
And the more people become aware of it, the more things change. So it doesn't have to be an either or. It could be a dialogue that grows into something better, which I think is what you're kind of expressing. And a lot of, you know, What African writers that, you know, some of the ones you've talked about are trying to express this, right?
But it, isn't it hard? Because people want to either do one or the other, like, okay, it must be that It's the old ways of doing things and that's the right way and we can only do that or it's the modern way or have you felt that tension of how to hold talk about [00:41:00] like open that space to everything?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes, I've felt that and it's also very present in the contemporary issues as well.
Um, but if we have to carry out, um, the project of sustainability forward and if we the cultural practices of people are relevant, or they can offer us something, then we need to engage that very seriously. And in African philosophy, there are two, two, um, ontologies
Most African philosophers have consensus on, you know, one is that, you know, human beings are relational, um, and that's [00:42:00] where one of the African philosophers turned the cards, you know, around, you know, I think therefore I am right.
Andrea Hiott: So,
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah, so he turned it around.
Andrea Hiott: I am, and then therefore I think, or I have the potential to think or something.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. I am because we are. Yeah. So not, I think, therefore I am.
Andrea Hiott: I
Jonathan Bill Doe: am because we are, you know.
Andrea Hiott: That's wonderful. Wow.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. So that changed. You know, or subverts the Western philosophy in a way. So if we have to carry out this sort of relationality of human beings and accept the mutuality of human beings, then it and then it elevates the philosophical [00:43:00] concept and ideas that these knowledge holders embody.
And if that finds expression into efforts of sustainability, then we are a step forward because that provides a perspective to question what the international bodies, you know, have always underpins, you know, their sustainability thinking. Because most often, if you think about sustainability, you're talking about economics, and economics is thought of in individual terms, and profit making, and so on and so forth, you know?
So, this idea that I am because we are, you know, provides a perspective to question this economics, Of profit making of, [00:44:00] um, maximizing profit, wherever you can find it at the expense of the environment, you know, and the African philosophers also find a consensus with the idea that Africans relate to human beings.
Yes, but they also relate to the environment in a very unique way or relate to the nonhumans in very unique ways. So, to the African, I think the paper, Redou's paper, yeah, he touched on the view that, yeah, water bodies, some water bodies are deities, or they have spirits behind them. They believe that there is a psychological distinction between present [00:45:00] humans, the departed humans, the ancestors,
all these. logical distinctions are in a continuum. So yeah, we are not only trying to sustain the environment or water body for the present generation, but to a future generation. And in doing so, you're also
into what the ancestors have also left. You know, so these two, um, ontologies, you know, provide a perspective on sustainability and the underpinning economic assumptions in sustainability as crafted in [00:46:00] the international conventions.
Andrea Hiott: I love this, what you're saying because it speaks to what I think of as like nestedness, right?
Which is what I was trying to get at too with that, not either or, like there's all these scales, right? That we can still learn from our own heritage, for example. Um, and. What heritage is can still be learned and I really love this. Um, I am because we are I think now is a good time to think about that wise use thing, which is like this wise use principle, which is that it should be for the benefit of humankind in a way that's compatible with Like maintaining the site such that it's good for the ecosystem or something like that.
I can put it in the show notes, the actual thing, but it's mostly the sustainability thing. When you talk about too, like the SDGs, the sustainable development goals, I think number 14 and 17, you bring up, um, that like what we're trying to do With this whole practice that we talked about, these people [00:47:00] coming in and preserving the site has to do with this sustainability.
So what we want to do is what you're describing is look at this nestedness of history and peoples and so on. And the way that you present a possibility of doing this is through this fishing practice. Which, you can say the word again, I already forgot. Atskita. Atskita. Atskita. Atskita. Atskita. Atskita.
Um, so, what is that? And maybe then we can look at that as an example of this, because I think everything we've been talking about. From both sides, right? From whoever are the suppressors and whoever they're suppressed, or whoever the Assumers and whoever are the ones who are having things assumed about them, which is always a dynamical changing nested thing.
But through this example, we can begin to see how it benefits everyone in a way. Um, In the sense that you open up. So first of all, what is this fishing practice in a, in the lagoon?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Well, okay. So it's, um, um, yeah, so [00:48:00] it's Achille as I've mentioned. It's mainly, um,
Andrea Hiott: Did you see it growing up? I have to ask, by the way.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. Okay. So it's, was it familiar to you from?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Beginning. Okay.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, so, so many, they are, you know, wetland lagoons, you know, so there are trees, you know, all forms of trees that grow around it at the bank. Um, so a fisher would go cut the branches, you know, make them dry a little bit.
Then we'll go and dump them, you know, carefully in a certain area and then use poles, you know, to hold them, you know, together within a certain radius. And then that's become something like if I may say, say that a house, [00:49:00] so to say, for the fish.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, I'll put a picture of it or at least link to it because it kind of is like this little underwater house and then you have these like little poles.
Or not little. These poles sort of showing from above water where it is.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Still there?
Andrea Hiott: Oh
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so these poles hold it, you know, because the lagoon flows. Because it is connected to the Atlantic Ocean. So it flows, it has times that it flows, the currents can be quite heavy sometimes. And so the poles hold the branches, you know, together. So, after a while, the the owner goes past the net around it.
Take the branches out and then trap the fish there and the wine that is done, bring [00:50:00] everything back and then wait for another season. This
Andrea Hiott: takes like a long time, we should say, because they put all the it's kind of like just. um, cutting up lots of sticks and then you're putting them underwater and then the fish are like, oh wow, that looks like a great place to live and this takes time.
So like it's over a year or two years, right, that the fish suddenly, they're not like suddenly there. They build their little homes there and it's a whole little ecosystem that is created. But then all the fish are there. So you have all the fish you could want right there. Yes. But it's a time that I bring up time because I think that's an important point.
Like it's a different time conception too.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. Yeah. And also when it's time for harvesting them, you know, they have a way of trapping them. They can go, if it's the pile of branches at one spot, they can go a certain distance away and begin to beat the lagoon, sort of hit it. And then the surrounding fish, you know, get find a safe
Andrea Hiott: haven and then
Jonathan Bill Doe: they get trapped there more.[00:51:00]
Andrea Hiott: Then
Jonathan Bill Doe: that's when they cast. The net around it. Poor fish,
Andrea Hiott: but hey. At least they're not getting hooks through their mouths. And then thrown back in the water.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, so, that is, um, that reduced the types of, um, signing fishing nets. That uses nylon, you know, to fish. And it's a way to also cut down overfishing.
Yeah. So that's for me is a wise use practice that should be encouraged. You know, um,
Andrea Hiott: so that's been sort of invisible. I think you use the word invisible that, would you say these are knowledge holders, these fishermen? Fisher people, fisher women and men, I don't know if it's women and men, but
Jonathan Bill Doe: yeah, it's predominantly male.
Yeah. But yeah. Women are also present. [00:52:00] Yeah. I would say the the, uh, practitioners, they are, you know, they practice that, but I wouldn't say, um, yes, they embody some form of practice. Yeah, but they are not necessarily the diviners or the the priests and so on. Clearly that the diviners and priests, yeah, they can also, or they own, you know, some of those as well.
Yeah. So that's about the wise use consideration of the Ramsar. But I think to say very quickly about the wise Ramsar's wise use. consideration is that in my reading, it, the focus was on birds initially, you know, migratory birds.
You know, so the focus was on how to make safe spaces for birds that move from one [00:53:00] place to the other, you know, but there again, there are also local beliefs about these birds.
which were also not considered. And also, there are some of those spaces where, that are considered safe havens for the birds, there are also deities there. So, if the deities are recognized, and incorporated in the management plan. Yes, you can be serving the wise use principle of the RAMSA convention, as well as promoting the local knowledge and belief system as well.
Andrea Hiott: But if you don't know about that, if you haven't Yes. Somehow opened a discussion about it, [00:54:00] then that's that assumption again, right? You talk about the forest too, that, I mean, this happens quite often. I think, um, that what are continued considered values or assumed to be kind of universal values that just don't really look at the nuance of what the bird might or might not mean from another perspective.
It's more just a giant category of bird that we need to save, um, or that. Save instead of understanding that from different positions, what a forest is first of all, and what a bird is are completely different things and you can't just lump it all together into a category. Um, so there's some, yeah, just opening that up.
It's like opening up different ways of understanding these terms. This again relates to the language. Um, I feel like that's kind of what you're. You're trying to get us to do, to re evaluate almost like our thinking process itself and the assumptions themselves that we're making. What are the assumptions?
And [00:55:00] then asking, are those true for this particular context?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes, exactly. And it goes again into the core of the discipline, the disciplines that are involved in
the management of these conventions or the sites. And so there, the starting point of Ramsar itself, you know, could be faltered because it was more or less led by natural scientists who were concerned about preserving, you know, safe havens for the birds. So the starting point was a problem. Now it's time for us, like you said, to open this discussion up, incorporate a lot more ideas that can serve, you know, different purposes and in a way going into the sustainability of [00:56:00] the water bodies and to, and also for the local people as well.
Andrea Hiott: Because if you think of it in this nested way, scales and everything continuous, and that you can't separate all these things from each other, which is I think what both of us are trying to bring up in different ways, then even the goal of preserving birds or creating a safe space for birds actually needs to consider all of this in the long term, in the time aspect, because the people who are there, who are that place, are going to be either making this work or not work, um, in the long term, right?
So you can't, like, it's that kind of complex systems effect where everything's affecting everything else. So it's better to take a minute and look at the, these scales now. Um, if we really want to have this healthy wise use future sustainability, because they aren't separate, right? They're all nested together.
They're all affecting each other. And I think you show that with the fishing. In a sense, because, at least, I mean, maybe I'm even [00:57:00] reading into it a little bit, but here we have a kind of wise use practice that already answers a lot of the problems that we, um, deal with in terms of overfishing, the materials that are used, the way the fish are treated, the fish getting, completely being gone, um, but also in another nested level it addresses these more philosophical and historical themes that we were talking about.
So, for example, you bring up, Something with time, but also with, um, the way that we understand ownership, you know, so first of all, I already talked about the time with the fish and how it's a completely different conception of time, which fits very well with how we really need to think about nature, by the way, and sustainability.
So there's a lesson there, but also, we didn't say it yet, but people put up sort of a flag with, I think like a red or some kind of, um, there's a way of, yeah, like there's a way of saying, Hey, this is, um, In use this little community, fish community I've created. And it's beautiful because so long as you're kind of upkeeping that flag, I'll call it, you can [00:58:00] correct me, but that sign, that marker, then the people around know, okay, this is in use and we don't touch it.
And it belongs to whoever. But if that is left in disrepair or allowed to fall, and as it naturally will, and if no one's using it, and it's just a stick going into the water, there's no pollution, you know, maybe a flag, um, then people know, okay, now this area is open for us, we can come use the fish. So it's somehow beautifully kind of, um, solving or at least a different way of addressing some issues of community that also we could learn from, right?
Um, but maybe you could say more about that or what you think if I, if that makes sense to you.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Well, yes, you've said it well. Yeah, so it's how time is connected to ownership of space in the commons, you know, if you think of the lagoon as a common that belong to all the people that are living in the local area.
You can't say you're going to [00:59:00] own a spot in a lagoon in perpetuity. No. So in that case, time and also the more that the polls as a marker of the portions that. You own in the common indicating the temporality of the ownership.
Andrea Hiott: It's very beautiful. I just have to pause for a minute because there's so much talk now about commons and it's a very important word that I think we're trying to rediscover in this nested way.
And that's very important, right? That you have a sense of time and ownership in the sense that you just explained where Just the action itself says This is a temporary, um, caretaking or stewardship or ownership, if you want to use that word, of this space. But even the way it's created, the materials and the signage, everything says it's part of the common still [01:00:00] too, you know, it's very beautiful.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. So, um, but as soon as the polls, you know, you know, go down, yeah it's. Another person can take over, though the branches are still, you know, there, another person can take over, you and human beings, we age, and at some point, yeah, people get older. So, your strength also, the strength and ability to do the fishing, also intervening in this time,
Andrea Hiott: you know,
Jonathan Bill Doe: um, thinking about time.
And the ownership. So it's now when you can't do it. So the labor of the individual connected to time, you know, also intervening in the ownership. So another person who has strength, younger person also has [01:01:00] time and then take over. So this is the sort of thinking I was trying to tease, um, to bring up into the discussion of the common.
And also to lead it, lead feed it into the sustainability thinking. Yeah, I
Andrea Hiott: think it is a kind of ecological thinking. I hadn't thought about that. That, that, that's true. It is, that's true too, that you're even thinking of human lives as nested, that it's not only one life who's going to be the caretaker or, you know, We all come and we're strong at some point and then we, you know, there's this kind of rhythm, right?
This natural rhythm. And then, yeah. So, so that's a part of it too. Yeah. It's great.
So, I mean, there would be much more to say about your paper, but I think I'll just let people read it. I think we've given people a good reason to go, um, look at it, but PhD you're continuing with a lot of these themes, um, with gardening, right? With, I [01:02:00] guess it's like urban gardening and post colonial.
Ghana, maybe you could. So are you now building on some of this too, or just briefly, kind of maybe how does the urban gardening fit? Because that's another very interesting subject.
Jonathan Bill Doe: A lot of some of those ideas are there. Now I'm using them to think through. Gardening. Um, so the title of my PhD project is Urban Gardening and Sociotechnical Imaginaries in Post-Colonial Ghana. So, um, so, um, I'm thinking about urban gardening and also looking very much into the past, present and the future and the projection at least from the me school. All UN's point of view is that more and more people will be living in urban centers in the future. [01:03:00] And so now, um, and also the other assumption is that more and more people will be replaced with technology.
Um, for example, when I was in university, at the university, yeah, at some point you have to go to the banking hall to cash money or to deposit money, but that has been replaced with ATM. So the one who was. Um, collecting the cash where it was the role of that person now. So more and more of that will happen as technology, you know, takes or take some of the roles that human beings do.
So for me, what's the ideal thing that we can be doing? [01:04:00] So the ideal thing that we can be doing for me is gardening. And so if we think about urban spaces. In, in the future. So it's about, um, we have to start thinking about how to reserve spaces for gardening in the future. And so I, in, in my project, I think about urban gardening differently, you know, most people gardening in box six you know, little corners and so on and so forth.
For me, it's, yeah it's all good. But if that is, What some people will be doing in the long term or perhaps for the rest of their life in urban centers. Then we have to think about this seriously. And that brings in the discussion we are having about labor, you know, and [01:05:00] time.
Andrea Hiott: I was going to ask about that.
Yep.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. So, so I'm connecting those kinds of thinking also to the urban gardening as well, because it's, um, we need some form of exercise and labor to keep us healthy. Um, and that's the reason why we go to run, we go to walk and so on. Yeah. Yeah. So if there is a form of gardening that we can exert some of those. On the cultivation walking to the garden, you know, growing, produce, producing foods, you know, and so on. Yeah. Those for me, you know, will include labor and then we can also bring in the idea of the ownership of that particular space. Time and [01:06:00] labor will intervene in. Who owns that and at what time?
Andrea Hiott: . This commons idea. Yes. And yes. This, I mean, labor is, means such a different thing to a lot of different people, but yeah. This embodied, um, yeah. Action. Right. Action. As knowledge. I feel like there's in, in the Kettle Lagoon, something I really like is you feel that the action is the knowledge, like in the Fisher, in the way we just described time and commons and so on.
That's a kind of new way of reconsidering knowledge, maybe even looking back at old knowledges in a different way, but you don't have it without the action. And there's probably something about gardening, especially in cities. I don't know, do people that, that's like that too, but in Ghana what's it like?
Are there, Mostly people just growing stuff in their backyard or they're near their, like, what is it like, what are gardens like in, in Ghana right now?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Okay. So what explains it more is the socio technical imaginings, you know, [01:07:00] because yeah, Ghana became an independent nation, state, 1957, and it took on a socialist project
Andrea Hiott: or,
Jonathan Bill Doe: you know, a socialist understanding of
Andrea Hiott: Okay.
Jonathan Bill Doe: So there was this mass, broad, big ideas about agriculture, about industry, about manufacturing.
Andrea Hiott: Labor, economics. Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. And so it had all these big ideas, but that has shifted, you know, from the 1970s and 80s. It's tend to be neoliberal, you know, in a sense, yes. So now in the cities, you have a presence of manufacturing companies.
Um, some of the old projects that were started manufacturing, uh, industries that were started in [01:08:00] the 1950s, 1960s, you know, there now the new wave of neoliberal, you know, enterprises, companies, businesses. and so on are also springing up in the urban areas. And these are competing for space. So the people who are in the urban areas now have to, are struggling to have a place to, to garden.
So what they are now doing, especially for, uh, what I call the, the high tension gardening.
Andrea Hiott: High tension gardening?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: So if you have a, say, main electric, electricity grid, you know, being transmitted from one place to the other, They have these massive big holes and wires. . So that's space. It takes quite a [01:09:00] space now.
So you find that some people, because, um, the law is that people cannot live under that. Oh, okay. It's also dangerous to help.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. So
Jonathan Bill Doe: that's where some people are now doing that.
Andrea Hiott: Oh. Because the space is open. Yes. Is there any movement to try to think about gardens as heritage in terms of protection or in terms of making space in the way that, or, I don't know, all those words like sustaining preservation, like, is there anything like that going on?
Jonathan Bill Doe: Not, um, to the best of my knowledge, yeah, because gardening very much, um, at least in the way that I think of it is much. Agricultural, you know, thing more, much more horticultural thing. Um, so it's not [01:10:00] the heritage idea and philosophical ideas are not entering those, you know, spaces or disciplines at the moment.
So, so, not, but, um, gardening. Yeah. There's also what they call per heaven agriculture. That's. how it's thought of. So it's thought of, you know, producing food food, you know, for, um, the urban community and so on. But the thing is that it's people who are making the effort, individuals who are making the effort, also depending on their economic circumstances, to do the planting there.
I'm not aware of any government, Let efforts consciously reserve such spaces for that.[01:11:00]
Andrea Hiott: That's, I mean, that makes me think of course of this idea that I talk about, which is like phenomenological heritage, that the lived experience itself, right? The experience of gardening and of why people would want to go make gardens in that area under the wires, like that to me feels like heritage, right?
Um, and not heritage that's in the past because it's, I think you addressed this some in your. work too. It's living, you know, it's, you're constantly kind of determining what the past, present, and future are and when you're talking about heritage. So in the case of urban gardening or gardening and what the role, what that is for the lived experience, the phenomenology of the people living in the city is actually incredibly important.
And it's almost like in a kind of physical or you could even think of it as like a mental physical health issue of heritage in a sense, because yeah it's really creating something that's going to matter on all levels of [01:12:00] heritage and even, you know, also just of health for the city and for the people.
So yeah, it's another one of those things that is nested in a lot of ways that, that I feel like your work is going to bring out, especially relative to those themes we were already discussing. So, I'm looking forward to, I've already gotten a little taste of it, but I'm looking forward to hearing more and seeing your presentation and stuff.
Um, Is there anything you, we didn't talk about that you want to make sure we talk about before we go? I already kept you a little bit longer than I was supposed to. Yeah.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah. Um, yes I think we probably, but the, maybe one last thing about the gardening, you know, it also, it's about belief, local beliefs about plants as well.
There are also festivals. That especially that becoming urbanized or in urban areas that have some plants [01:13:00] that feature in the festive occasion also part of the rituals. Now these, some of them grow in the wild. Now, we can also be thinking about wild spaces in urban areas, especially when you now have the states and Companies competing to get land, you know, and so on.
So, so it's also about connecting the local belief system to the plants and using that to make a case. For a space to be reserved for such types of plans to grow so that they can be continued to know of these festivals as well.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I think you gave a presentation way back where you talked about about that a little bit in the colloquium and I really like that part.
And I think that's very important for heritage to that we start to get beyond this [01:14:00] human centric perception of what heritage is. I mean, a city's heritage is not only. It's human heritage. It's also all the beings that we depend upon and interact with, especially the plant. So yeah, I really liked that you have started looking at it.
I mean, I remember from some of your work, you're even kind of looking at it from a plant perspective at times. So that's going to be fascinating too. To read more of. Jonathan, thanks for, um, being here today and thanks for the work you're doing. It's it's cool to talk to you about this. I think we've got even more we should talk about at some point,
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yes. And thank you very much for taking interest in the paper and my work. Yeah. And thanks for all the effort you put in. Yeah. And yeah, look forward for more discussions in the future.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, me too. It was my pleasure. I learned a lot. So thanks, . You're welcome. All right. Have a good day there.
Jonathan Bill Doe: Yeah, same to you.
Andrea Hiott: Bye. [01:15:00]