More than Fame
The Power in Taking Life Slowly and with Purpose with @Lucasvoz
A conversation with Lucas Vos, a multi-faceted individual with fascinating academic pursuits, an exploratory YouTube channel, and thoughtful perspectives on life. Lucas shares his journey from being driven by societal pressures and material success to finding deeper meaning and purpose through conversations, psychedelics, and a profound connection with nature. We discuss his recent studies in Egyptology, his thoughts on thinkers like René Girard, and his shift from superficial goals to becoming a school teacher. Lucas also opens up about his transformative relationship with his wife and how it has grounded him, embodying the harmonious balance of opposites.
Tune in to explore how Lucas navigates the challenges of modern life while holding space for deeper truths and meaningful relationships.
#RenéGirard #loveandphilosophy #fame
00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
01:35 Meet Lucas Voss
01:45 Exploring Egyptology and Rene Girard
03:06 Marriage and Personal Growth
06:23 The Concept of Hematheism
09:18 Unity, Multiplicity, and Reality
10:36 The Paradox of Reality
21:49 The Influence of Media and Pop Culture
32:07 Personal Transformation and Self-Help
37:20 Exploring the Connection Between Body and Mind
37:59 The Impact of Nature on Thought Patterns 40:40 Transformative Power of Psychedelics
41:57 The Journey of Self-Optimization 45:25 Embracing Spirituality and Family Support
53:57 The Role of Love and Relationships
58:31 Choosing a Path of Teaching and Connection
01:03:57 The Influence of a Supportive Partner
01:07:48 Concluding Thoughts on Life and Relationships
The conversation about Andrea's life story: https://youtu.be/RR6QNYbBKM4?si=hJdo7CkDdKUBT_KZ @Lucasvoz
Egypt Thesis: https://youtu.be/VcQCD_LBt3U?si=koDrjxpce1jisJ6c
TRANSCRIPT
Rene Girard, Egpytian Gods, and Lucas Vos on Love and Philosophy
[00:00:00] hello, everyone. Welcome back to love and philosophy beyond dichotomy. This is a research podcast where we delve into all sorts of subjects relative to. how we make our way in the world. Yeah. And. navigability research. We discuss what we love about life, about learning. And we share. All the many paths we've been on. Or subjects ideas. Relationships. Books, et cetera, that we've had to navigate the challenges and inspirations of all those shared landscapes. And we try and do it beyond the traditional divisions of [00:01:00] what does or does not fit together or what should or should not be said. And in that spirit. this week, I'm going to post. Maybe three different conversations. Because I'm finally back home after some travels and it really feels like it's been half a year of travels. I have a pretty deep backlog of research conversations now, at least a dozen or so. And they are from all sorts of scales and endeavors, all sides of the world.
And out of that backlog this week, I'm posting three. Pretty different ones. The first one is with Lucas, fun, us or Lucas Vos, V O S. You'll find him online. On YouTube. He has a podcast. I met him through this tangled. Beautiful
collection of paths and little corners that is YouTube. Because actually love and philosophy is kind of popular on YouTube. I'm not sure how that happened, but I'm very grateful. And I found Lucas through a conversation I had with Richard Watson, which [00:02:00] ended up. With me talking with Karen on the meaning code, which then meant that Lucas reached out to me and I would talk to him on his podcast. So, this is how it works in that amazing world. Anyway, it's delightful. As his Lucas, he's just graduated from college.
So we're talking about, where he is, what it means to look for and find purpose at that age. Which is some of, you know, an age of. Humans that I care and worry about very much, because it just seems like you're all I don't know, like the world is trying to stress you out with your own images and.
Oh, I guess all of us in a way, but especially young people, but that's a subject for another podcast anyway. Lucas has been through all this, and he's really trying to find meaning in his life and something that will be good for him and for the world. As he moves forward. So he's been questioning a lot of the things that the world says you should or. Have to do
and his paths really reflect that.
He tells us some good stories [00:03:00] about what he's been through, what he's been finding all along the way. We also talk about ideas. Of course, everything from Rene Girard To Egypt. God's uh, to his life-changing experience with psychedelics to. How he almost got sick, trying to be too healthy with all these, uh, improve yourself. programs. that we can all get rather fascinated with. We also talk about another life changing love, which is his recent marriage.
So. This is a conversation with someone who's at a different point in life than me, but we share a lot of common paths as well.
I appreciate learning from him and hearing his perspective. About what seemed like everyday things. But of course, those are the things. that matter the most to us. The next couple of conversations, one will be about the power of polarity, which is a fascinating topic that I'm. A little bit obsessed with, and another is with a packet. KaVo about the possibilities of plant cognition.
Just really interesting. [00:04:00] I talked with Mina salami about sensuous knowledge. Very inspiring book, uh, avid Noah about action and perception and entanglement. Anyway, there's, there's so many things, beautiful things coming up. If you look on the website, you can see all the names. A lot of beautiful revelations on the horizon. At least for me.
Anyway, thank you for being here and I hope you're doing well out there wherever you are making your way today. You can find the links to Lucas and to all the things we talk about. In the show notes. And. if you feel like sporting love and philosophy in any way, There are many opportunities and it really helps.
So lots of love to you and hope you enjoy this. Thanks for being here bye
hi, Lucas. We already said hi, but let's say hi again. Hello, hello, hello. We've talked before a few times and today we just are going to talk again and [00:05:00] about you this time. Uh, last time we tried to talk, we talked more about me, but, um, a question that came to mind today when I was thinking about your work, like the stuff you did with your undergraduate about Egyptology, which maybe we'll get into, uh, was Rene Girard
Andrea Hiott: am I, do I remember correctly that was kind of an inspiration towards that thesis you did as your undergraduate work? A
Lucas Vos: little bit. It's what I mentioned to my supervisor being like, this is one of my interests and inspirations. So do you have a topic that would uh, fit into that a little bit? But um, but yeah.
Andrea Hiott: What did you read or what, do you remember what was interesting about? About Girard? Yeah.
Lucas Vos: Uh, well, his theory about memetics and sacrifice, especially sacrifice relating more to Egypt, because I think, and as you are, who, I didn't even know how to describe it because he's, he's able [00:06:00] to talk about difficult topics, but I think originally he wasn't even a philosopher or anything of the sort, I don't know if you know, what is.
I haven't looked it up, I mean,
Andrea Hiott: it just came to me and I obviously I didn't even say his name right, Gérard, sorry.
Lucas Vos: I don't know how to say it. I'm terrible with French. You speak
Andrea Hiott: French, right?
Lucas Vos: Just a little bit. I have to be able to understand it for my parents in law. Aww. Oh,
Andrea Hiott: Gérard, congratulations, by the way.
Lucas Vos: Thank you. Yeah, my wife's How long have
Andrea Hiott: you been married now?
Lucas Vos: How long? Uh, let me check the date. It's almost been two months. Wow.
Andrea Hiott: You're welcome. We'll get into that too. That's the love part.
Lucas Vos: No. So yeah, a little bit of French, but, uh, and as you, I think he was a literature scholar slash teacher, actually.
Yeah, it was definitely
Andrea Hiott: a literature that he writes about. I think he was at Stanford and he's deaf. Yeah. Like Greek. I know there's a lot of Greek stuff in there and,, it's very interesting actually, because I hadn't thought much about it, but this beyond dichotomy thing, I need to go read him again. Um, So I already I'm going to say thank you for [00:07:00] reminding me of, of that because I think it's a lot about combining opposites, isn't it?
And about like, I mean, I'll have to, that's why I was bringing it up to you, but I seem to remember him talking about, um, that we imitate each other and that it's like, yeah, that similarity is the problem rather than dissimilarity. And that's really interesting when you think about it. And then there's also
Lucas Vos: the mimetic of the opposite, let's say, I think if I remember correctly.
It's okay if we
Andrea Hiott: get it wrong, but just tell me what comes up.
Lucas Vos: That's okay.
Andrea Hiott: Everyone, we don't know what we're talking about. We're just trying. Go look up.
Lucas Vos: No, but I found him to be terribly insightful. I listened mostly to like an audio series he did, which is excellent. Um, I think it may have been with the BBC before he died.
But, um, he basically goes through his work in like a couple hours. Um, and that was terribly insightful, especially on sacrifice. I think he's got a very solid theory on it. What [00:08:00] role it served and then he connects that to, to Mimesis. But, uh, unless I stumble upon this, unless I stumble over my words and trying to relay this theory, I think I shouldn't go into it too deeply.
Andrea Hiott: No, I think what I'm, the reason I'm bringing it up is because with you as I'm trying to understand what you were thinking about that your professors noticed in you that then sort of oriented you towards what you study. Like, do you remember what was what the themes were? It doesn't have to be like specifically talking about it, but uh, where were you?
What were you thinking about? What do you care about?
Lucas Vos: So to give a bit of background, the thesis was about Egyptian theology and about specific texts which contained hymns to a specific God and that God was seen in those hymns in the context of those hymns as the highest God and other gods would be manifestations of him.
Um, and I think one of the main reasons my supervisor gave that topic to me, or at least he suggested that topic [00:09:00] was because I'm generally interested in gods, where I was at the time for sure. And in reality, and almost therefore theology, I'm trying to through whatever medium understand reality. And I found theology to be quite fruitful for that.
Um, Yeah, I'm really
Andrea Hiott: interested in that. Part of your life and your work to, um, you, you said gods, so, I mean, that's a big theme here, right? The pantheism. Yeah. But I don't, I mean, yeah, maybe you can talk about that a little, like that topic or, I mean, are you a pantheist? Or like what?
Lucas Vos: No, we are, but the, the, the term that, the term they use was hematheism.
That is like polytheism, but one god is. Taken to be higher than the other gods. So there's a hierarchy of some sorts with one at the top. Um, so even in the Bible, this view is kind [00:10:00] of espoused where they mentioned, for example, other gods. And don't quote me on this, but I think they say something to the lines of having to choose choosing Yahweh over the other gods, let's say, um, could be getting this wrong, which along those lines, that's how first the, the concept was explained to be my, my, by my teacher who taught me ancient religion in my course.
Um, but yeah, so within Egypt, there were times that. In this case, Amun, which was the god that I'm speaking about, was thought to be higher than other gods. And so, you're still operating within a polytheistic framework, but he would be, the sole ruler in a certain sense. And it's funny because this came shortly after there was something that you could consider monotheism.
Some people consider it monotheism, um, way before. [00:11:00] The religion of the, of the Israelites, um, where Akhenaten, which was another God, or sorry, I'm saying this wrong, Aten, which was another God was thought to be the only God and exclusively the only God. So even other gods would be erased from, from Egyptian, uh, tombstones and, and imagery, let's say.
So, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, it's so interesting to me. I said pantheism, didn't I? Sorry, it's too early in the morning here and I'm on the other side of the world from you today. So, and I've been traveling and, but I, yes, polytheism. Of course, I'm always thinking about like opposites, what seemed like opposites or many and how this relates to the idea of one or we brought up Girard and this idea of, I think he also has the idea of triangles and something with the mimetic.
I'd have to look back at it, but, um, and then in your, like Christian or certain kinds of, I'm no expert on [00:12:00] this at all, not even close, but there's definitely like the, the father, the son, the Holy ghost, there's the, you talk about, I don't think I have the terms right, but like the triad and the unity and, um, yeah.
So are all these ways of. Trying to understand like a plurality of possible gods. I mean, we don't even have to think about what does God like that word mean when it's plural or when it's singular. I find this so fascinating, but so hard to talk about. Was this part of why you wanted to get into it too?
Or do you have a clearer idea of it than me?
Lucas Vos: Yeah. So yeah, I think this view is kind of a reflection of my view of reality as well, which is similar to what you were just talking about of one in many. Um, one of the books that I read for the thesis is called something like that as well. Um, the one in the many, or at least one of the chapters is.
And so you've interviewed McGill Christ as well. Um, he, he [00:13:00] opposes the left and the right hemisphere. Um, and then another thinker I like speaks about multiplicity and unity. And then John for Vicky speaks about, well, opponent processing one. And I think he has another dichotomy that is, Escaping my mind right now.
And then you famously have Jordan Peterson speaking about order and chaos. And I think all of these are different frameworks, which, which I think point to, um, one, the paradox of reality because one and many seem to be opposites, but they both represent reality of some sorts. Um, yeah. And two, I think. The dichotomy of reality in a sense as well, which is what you're interested in and then going beyond it.
So transcending it in a way. So, so yeah, I think there's actually a lot of points of conversion there. So partially. Yeah, exactly. I
Andrea Hiott: mean, the whole idea of what I try to talk about in the philosophy and find ways to, What I'm trying to connect the [00:14:00] patterns with across all these disciplines is holding the paradox, right?
Which doesn't mean that the opposite, like, we seem to think of paradox as a problem rather than a portal, you know? But it's actually, I feel like it's more like, that's the portal, right? And you hold it. You don't try to make the, squish the opposites together, but you also kind of start to realize that there's not just two.
I mean, that's a weird way we think too, and the way our language is focused. And I think also these, At least most modern religions, I feel like it's an either or always, uh, this God or no God, or this religion or no religion, or you believe or you don't believe. And I'm really interested in, after studying it so much, what, like, how you see that too.
Because for me, I feel like the practice we need and what I'm trying to figure out a way to approach and show in my philosophy, which is, feels very important in a lot of ways, is holding the paradox, right? As a, a practice that opens up seeing things not in twos, right?
Lucas Vos: Yeah. Maybe more in
Andrea Hiott: threes or maybe in complex systems of threes, right, depending on where your position is.
I [00:15:00] don't know. How do you see it?
Lucas Vos: Well, I think speaking about mystery, which this is some kind of a mystery, the paradox, I don't think mystery is something to solve. I think it's something to attend to, uh, to hold space for. And so I think ultimate reality is not for us to understand. Maybe it's for us to interact with and it's for us to.
To be in relationship to, but you know, it's a paradox for a reason. And I think it partially comes from having a scientific worldview that we try to get an answer. I don't think we need an answer, but I think, I think there's a lot of beauty to. To the dichotomy and transcending it in some, in some way.
But that has to go beyond words at some point. So, so yeah, that's what I'm thinking about.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, it's like, I mean, in a way, we can't represent what it is. And we can't, I mean, all this stuff, whether it's [00:16:00] religion or whether it's text, whether it's literature or whatever it is that we're, We're doing, we're, we're finding ways to represent it and communicate about it with each other, right?
With one another. And that's very important and it's meaningful and real and even true. But what I hear you saying, or at least this would, might be my own projection is all the stuff that we're representing to one another, the real process, which is like continuous and kind of beyond beginning and end and none of these categories that we use to describe it and talk about it and come to know it better could ever actually describe it.
So we seem to kind of. Like, you know, how do we understand that we'll never describe it or, or it is this mystery in the way you described just by that's what it is. We're part of it, even we can't even get out of it, but at the same time, it's really important isn't it to try to describe it and to do the science and to do the literature, write the books, like find all these ways to communicate with one another.
Because somehow that's doing something to, with the process of the process or what do you think?
Lucas Vos: Yeah, well, it's funny. [00:17:00] I was listening to talk about, um, Taoism as well. And, but just speaking of reminds me of that, where, you know, you have the, the Tao Te Ching. I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Taoism is important.
That's another example of this in a way.
Lucas Vos: Yeah. And you, they write a lot about the
Andrea Hiott: Tao
Lucas Vos: at the same time, they're very aware like this is inexhaustible. Yeah. There's even that
Andrea Hiott: quote, isn't there? Like the Tao that can be spoken, isn't the Tao or something.
Lucas Vos: And then there's, yeah, it, it, it aligns with this idea of, I think it was Meister Eckhart or maybe someone else that said, That he would pray to God to rid him of God, of the concept of God, because he cannot fully understand it.
Andrea Hiott: Oh, I've never heard that. That's beautiful. I mean, I've read Meister Eckhart, but wow. Thanks for that. That's a good one.
Lucas Vos: I'm not sure if that was Meister Eckhart, but I hope so. Whoever
Andrea Hiott: will find it. So,
Lucas Vos: so yeah, I think it's something like that. It's, it's, it's definitely useful to, to think about this. But not in a way to solve it.
Um, but you can always get closer and you can find ways to attend to it. [00:18:00] But yeah, you were speaking about, um, different religions and, and, and false and correct. One thing I point out in the thesis is that the Egyptians didn't think about gods or even, um, creation myths as, as false or correct. They thought more on sacred and less sacred.
So I think one of the reasons we applied is false correct dichotomy and paradigm is again, because Because this is kind of what we were, what we were raised in in the last under 200 years. Um, but I'm trying to find ways to transcend that a little bit. And sometimes you have to let go of all your theories.
Sometimes theories can also be good ground to stand on. But you have to remember that the ground that you stand on is not absolute. Um, it always remains a map to the territory. It remains something that, that is of this world and I feel cannot fully represent what goes beyond. So, yeah, [00:19:00] that's
Andrea Hiott: what I would say.
Good way to say it. It reminded me, I think, in, in your video, which I'll link to, where you talk about your thesis, you talk about, I think it's that the, this worldview was one where multiple stories or multiple paths can be correct. I think. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And even, um, I won't say it correctly, but, you know, multiple gods are also one god or one god is, are multiple gods or, there's this wonderful quote, I think it's by Jan Osman that you talk about, um, like how to, I don't, it's talking again about the triunity of the triad.
Again, I don't know which term is exactly right, but you talk about it being like transcendent. It's, it's the way to be, there's a wonderful thing about the plurality of gods that then can be transcended to be something. Like one, which almost feels like the opposite of how you might think of it as being, but speaks to what we're trying to do here with holding the paradox, right?
Lucas Vos: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's the fun thing about it as well. It's funny, but it's [00:20:00] also, it can be annoying because you can't fully pin it down, which you have to let go of that. And I think you have to, you have to approach it more with the right hemisphere in a sense that you cannot be too precise about it.
Um, but yeah, there's a power to, to both the plurality and the unity. Um, and I, I was speaking yesterday to someone who is very much interested and involved with Robert Persick's work. I don't know if you're familiar with him.
Andrea Hiott: Who, who say it again?
Lucas Vos: Robert Persick.
Andrea Hiott: Oh, the motorcycle Zenon and the art of motorcycle maintenance.
Yeah.
Lucas Vos: Yeah. I like his framework as well. Cause he has a metaphysics of quality where he, he poses that. Static and dynamic quality is a way in which you can, you can view the world, I guess it's, it's, it's a very useful paradigm and I found it to be very useful and it connects with this as well. This multiplicity and this unity and that you kind of need both in most situations, um, and therefore for reality as well.
I think. I absolutely
Andrea Hiott: agree. Yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah. It's funny you bring, I mean, I guess we all, once we have this understanding through reading or something, we start finding similar sources because I don't think, you know, but I also worked in this like ecological motoring and I've done some, okay, well, I've done some conversations actually relative to that.
And I, I've read that a lot and, and, and thought about it even just in terms of, I mean, that's a more practical issue, but yeah, how we can understand, What movement means in our lives and the way that we create vehicles towards it. But I think to try to bring it to a more practical, like has this, how does this, because.
I want to know, you know, you're doing so much studying and you're thinking so much about this and you're doing it in school, but it, it feels, you know, now you've graduated and, but you're, it feels like a real life mission you're on, you know, and when did this, I know we talked a little bit about it together before, but when did it start and how does it relate to all these ideas?
Like, how has this [00:22:00] changed you? Right. Is this become a practice for you in a way or
Lucas Vos: the ideas?
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, and this, this idea, too, of being able to see. Think of, for example, I wonder about with, with God and with, with religion. I mean, I think that's an important part of your life, right? And I don't know if you came up in a particular to go to Gerard, like a kind of imitation or a path.
Right. Um, and I don't know if that fits well with all of this or not, or yeah. What does that bring up in you?
Lucas Vos: Oh yeah. Okay. Let me think where to start here. Well, I got, I got interested in like, Really learning and reading at a later point in life. And I'm very young, so I don't mean that in my sixties, but like when I was 18, so like as a teenager, I was never interested in school.
Um, I think partially because, you know, you have to read, so you don't, your curiosity aspect doesn't get activated so much. Um, so [00:23:00] yeah, about when I was finishing high school and when I finally had like some, some freedom to read what I actually wanted to read, that's when I got turned on to a lot of. Um, a lot of these ideas started with John for faking and, and, um, and I read a bunch of philosophy as well.
My brother has been very helpful with that. Uh, he teaches philosophy and so, so yeah, that, that started things. And then slowly, I think I started developing something akin to this worldview of. It's a, it's a relational worldview. It's a worldview of, of unity and multiplicity as you're describing as well, and of holding the paradox.
Uh, it's a nice way of saying it. And what that translates to in my life is that I, I try to, I try to make my life. As reality is or as nature is, let's say we're speaking about nature and importance of reconnecting to nature in a sense. I think nature [00:24:00] has a very fine balance of of unity and multiplicity in a sense.
Um, I think there's a real coherence to nature, but there's fantastic diversity to it. Um, and so I think the more I've learned about these ideas, the more I've realized that it's very important to put into practice first. So to stop always talking about it and, and what putting that into practice means is, yeah, I think it's to be, to try to become more beautiful.
And I think to become more beautiful is to, to exactly, yeah, to, to replicate nature of some sorts. Um, and therefore the multiplicity and the unity, the paradox almost, um,
Andrea Hiott: Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah.
Lucas Vos: Whereas that's not, I think, normal nowadays. So if we're really going to analyze a bit how a modern life looks, I think it's quite disconnected from that, actually, in many ways.
And that was definitely the trajectory I was going [00:25:00] on for a while.
Andrea Hiott: Can you say more about that? Because I think that's something I hear, I mean, that's a really important. Point right now and it even weirdly relates to Girard I think because in terms of where we are now with social media and like this mimetic Imitation and and what you just described it doesn't feel like we're trying to reflect or Find ourselves or notice ourselves as part of nature in the way you said it feels more well, what's it been for you?
I'd really like to hear your experience.
Lucas Vos: Yeah, so I think I was on that path for a while as a teenager Uh, I lost your camera here. I hope you're all good, but, um,
Andrea Hiott: I'm still here. I don't know. Okay,
Lucas Vos: good, good. Okay. Um,
Andrea Hiott: yeah,
Lucas Vos: I think I was on a path for a while just as a teenager. I think it was obvious to me that I just wanted to, to make a lot of money.
And, um, yeah, I think, I think it's because I was kind of raised by pop culture in, in a sense, watching a lot of TV and I think I never questioned the values of, of that. [00:26:00] So of the TV shows I was watching, the films that I was watching and yeah, everything that I was interacting with through the internet, I think a lot of kids are online nowadays.
And if you just would look at it by who's getting the most views and the most clicks, so who are people really giving their attention to, um, and therefore imitating often, um, I mean, there's, there's celebrities, there's sometimes they're athletes, they're pop stars. They're, they're often people that are not living a very balanced life.
They're often, they often have. Difficult personal lives as well. Um, but they're often rich and they're often famous, so they're getting a lot of eyeballs on them. And yeah, so I never really questioned that path. I was always like, yeah, of course that's the highest task you could want. But I think what you're doing there to use a bit more religious language and help that doesn't turn people off too much, just like you are basically worshiping lower gods, you're worshiping idols, you're worshiping greed, uh, money.[00:27:00]
And that's not good, you know, so I think at some point I had, I started to realize, I think it was more of a gradual process that that that's not the highest pass I could take in life. And, and I think the education helped with it but also trying to live a more natural life. Um, trying to get priorities straight.
My wife really helped me become more complete and more balanced for sure. Um, in my, in my wedding, during my wedding, I said that I used to want to be perfect, but that she made me want to be complete and whole, um, And this, this perfection is something I think a lot of people are going for nowadays as well.
It's this, I think it's a domination of the masculine as well. The masculine wants to be perfect, but the feminine is able to be whole. And so, um, [00:28:00] yeah, that's definitely played out in my life because when I just started getting into these books and into the self help things and into this journey of like, I want to make something of my life.
The obvious trajectory there was like, I want to become the most successful or like, you know, Become the best at something, but you always sacrifice, sacrifice something if you want to be the best at, at a particular thing. And so, um, in accordance to nature, I, I stopped going on that path. Um, because anything that grows so quick as to become famous is like a cancer.
In biological terms. So, so yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Oh, time. Take the time. It's, yeah, I think there's so much in there that I care about and that I think about a lot and that I see in, um, you know, different people in my life, younger people too that I worry about, but also myself of just [00:29:00] what you just said, like you, we, we were born into a certain kind of space and there's already these kind of, you know, accepted parameters of what is, um, attractive in terms of what we want to become.
But it's, it's, uh, I think we, we think because things are the way they are, that must be right. that it must be, yeah, this is very hard to talk about, but hopefully we can try and do it together because, um, for example, you look on social media, like you were saying, and you see the people who have the most money or the most, um, followers or whatever.
And we think that means they're happy or something, or that they've succeeded in some kind of, all this is stuff we assume, we're not really thinking about it, but we direct, we want to somehow be like that, like seen, loved in that way. But we take for granted that that actually means those things and it actually doesn't always.
I mean, do you, [00:30:00] how do we, how do we readjust like, uh, our understanding of, I mean, I feel like what you said about being complete and what we've been trying to talk about, what I think of as holding the paradox, what many other people that we've already talked about have different phrases for, you kind of, or meditation or what religion can give us.
You take a step back from all that and you just look at it and say, You know, there's some, it has to do with, with the nature and the wholeness too. I don't know. What do you, it's hard to talk about, but let's try. No,
Lucas Vos: no, let's do it. I have two different ways to approach this that I like. One is the, the being versus the having mode that John Fofecchi has spoken about, which I really like where the having mode is, is it's about having more things or, um, you know, being, being richer.
So having, having more money, um, And hoping that that transforms you. So you see that often with people that go through crises in their lives. They try to change the things that they have and, and they buy sports cars or whatever, um, [00:31:00] whereas it's much more important to, to focus on the being mode. So how can I be a better, a better husband, a better wife, a better, a better father or daughter or whatever it may be?
How can I become wiser? So that's one of the ways in which you can, you can change your, your paradigm a little bit in the way you're looking at the situation. And another one that I like is, um, which fits with this is it's quantity versus quality where anything you can, you can quantize doesn't necessarily mean that it's.
That it's going to result in a better life. Like if you have more followers, doesn't mean it's going to be better. If you have more money, doesn't mean it's going to be better, but you can focus on the quality of your life. Um, and then you can be content. It's the same with the people that are trying to live now for 230 years by becoming half of a cyborg.
And I think a lot of it is just out of existential angst that you're, or not existential angst, but death anxiety that you're afraid of, of this to end. But I think [00:32:00] it's very important to come to terms with your mortality. And I think it's an escape when once you do that, I think you can get the, the satisfaction and the contentment in life to say, okay, this was, this was good.
Um, and it's okay that it's going to finish and it's natural. So it's going back to nature as well. So, so yeah, really what we're trying to do here is. It's to become more natural, I guess. That's, I think it's a very high thing to, to strive for, uh, and not to be reduced. So yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
Yeah, it's, I mean, again, we're trying to hold the paradox because for me, it's not that we have to become natural, but it's almost like a realization that.
Andrea Hiott: We're more already than this body, right? And we are, we are part of it. And how do we notice it and come to know it? Or how do we come to understand that our completeness is actually what you were just describing?
It's the being. The being and the having [00:33:00] are the same in a way in this paradox. So when you, when you stop separating like yourself from nature,
Lucas Vos: Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: I don't know how to describe that. Right. Yeah.
Lucas Vos: Yeah. You're right. No, but you're right. I mean, separation is one of the things that, well, many different religions or schools of thought was described as, as, as an illusion in a sense.
Um, I'm not sure about that exactly, but it of course depends on how you look at it. But separation definitely is something that isn't, it's kind of false on one level of reality. When we're talking about unity, for example, in a way we do have a unity. Um, it's about learning to, to see the separation for an image, for, for not a, for, for basically a useful fiction, but, um, learning that we're actually, or realizing that we're actually one in a sense, and then you would never hurt yourself, hopefully, so you wouldn't hurt another.
Um, [00:34:00] and that would hopefully result in the more harmonious existence. That's something to strive for, it's like, it's really significant something to strive for.
Andrea Hiott: It is, and um, I mean even these kind of practices can become, how do I say, not, not static or dichotomous, but it's uh, I'm trying to think of like, just in real life, okay?
Because it's, it's wonderful to be in this space where we, we agree and we can talk about it. About these things, but the way that the patterns are set at the moment or the way that the paths that we come into, right, work in a certain way. And until we can all have. this way of stepping back and realizing, which could have been fast, but to shift those patterns, then you, one feels like they need to fit in.
Right. So I don't know if you've experienced this or how you've dealt with it, but you know, you're a young person, you need you, the world is telling you, you have to decide who you are [00:35:00] and create your story and what are you going to study and where are you going to work? And
Lucas Vos: yeah,
Andrea Hiott: no, you got to make money and how are you going to pay the bills?
And
Lucas Vos: yeah.
Andrea Hiott: And sometimes it, All of what we're talking about is the way to deal with all that pressure, but it's a lot of pressure, isn't it? And it's,
Lucas Vos: it is,
Andrea Hiott: it's hard, isn't it? To understand that this can be helpful. I mean, maybe the more of us talk about it and are doing it, the more the patterns start to shift.
But has it been hard for you? Cause maybe listening to you and looking at you, one might think, Oh, well, he just, Kind of had an epiphany and he's living his life in this way, but,
Lucas Vos: that's a good, it's a very good question. Um, I'm very fortunate. First of all, I think I'm well surrounded. I've always had good family around me.
Um, giving me, giving me people that I know will love me no matter what I do. That's I think very powerful to have a very useful, um, something I can always rely on and I know that I'm also lucky in terms of personality. I'm, [00:36:00] I'm not neurotic at all. So I don't, I don't get very fussed about. Um, what other people think, but that also had to do with the certain, certain lessons that I went through in life because I definitely felt feel like I was the opposite as a kid or even as a teenager.
Um, yeah, I think it was around this time where I was, you know, finishing high school and I had time on my own. This was as Corona started. So, Having a lot of time there. Um, and just basically thinking like, I should not let my life be guided. What other people might, what other people might think of me. Um, that's not to say I won't listen to what people think of me or that, that I don't hear my family when they're concerned about me, but if you don't, don't, don't love me, then there's a good chance that what you're saying about me is not to, to lift me up, but actually to destroy me or to, to want to, you know, [00:37:00] Maybe it's, maybe it's more coming from your own limitations or maybe it's coming from envy, um, that you're voicing what you think about me or all these things.
So
Andrea Hiott: were people doing this to you at the time? I mean, were there actual people that you felt,
Lucas Vos: um,
Andrea Hiott: or was it more of this media kind of thing that we've been talking about? I think a lot,
Lucas Vos: I think a lot of it is like, you think people are doing it. So it's, it's your own imagination of what people are saying or thinking about you.
that are holding you back from changing your life. Uh, sometimes they're, they are actually people, but it doesn't really matter so much. It's more about your own projections and your own thoughts. And I was more interested in stopping those thoughts than stopping those people. For me, it's fine if people want to do that because it's their own issue.
And actually, I would love to help them with that, but it's more about what, what you construct in your own mind that can be extremely parasitic. Is
Andrea Hiott: that connected to what we were talking about in terms of all the movies you'd watched and all the, this idea you had of what, What success was supposed to be and you comparing yourself to that somehow.[00:38:00]
Lucas Vos: Yeah. You're, you're, you're planting patterns in your, in your life where they're being planted by the content you consume and the people you surround yourself with start to create expectations, of course. So that's why a lot of people advise to, to change the people you hang out with, for example, or like to, to change your surroundings that they're all helpful because you're, your reality around you shapes who you are in a sense.
And you have power over that to an extent, but it goes very gradually. So you have to change that step by step. If you want to go into a more beautiful life, you have to clean it up a little bit, step by step and, and, um, and make it more beautiful.
Andrea Hiott: Well, that's kind of a wonderful realization, isn't it? I mean, it seems kind of simple, but you had to have it, right, as you're describing it.
Just, just to step back and think, okay, everything I'm reading, everything I'm opening my phone and looking at, all the conversations I'm having, these are patterning my life. And yeah. It feels like you don't have agency [00:39:00] over that because you don't at first, you're just pushed into it and you know as kids we don't even have a sense of self yet and through language and sociality we, we, we develop the agency to question our self, listen to our thoughts or we're just still stuck with them like, We can't separate our, we don't know that our thoughts are not us, right.
That's a realization to have. And then to have what you just described to realize, okay, I'm not my thoughts, but also my thoughts are just patterns that are being created by all the stuff I'm consuming. Yeah. If I change what I consume. I can change the patterns, maybe.
Lucas Vos: Exactly. And that goes very slowly.
But it's, it's, it's really what you say. It's a powerful realization. It's, it's basically shifting your, your mind in that sense, where you can feel really enslaved by what you're doing and the behavior you're engaging in. But you can also see it as, Okay. I have some power over this and I can do that step by step.
And I feel that, especially with habits, I think that's, um, I mean, it's a very cliche and a popular book, but atomic habits. I really like the book. [00:40:00] It's very simple. Um, but it speaks about it. The title is fun. It's atomic. So atomic meaning that it's a small, it can be small as an atom, but it cannot, it can have a gigantic impact like an atom bomb.
So, so you can change small little things in your life to make massive changes because everything you do, um, especially if you do it. habitually compounds over time. And so, yeah, I found it to be an extremely empowering way of thinking. And that started me off on the self help type of thing. Oh, was that one of
Andrea Hiott: the first books you read, Atomic Habits?
Lucas Vos: No, not necessarily, but it's in that sphere. But that
Andrea Hiott: idea in general. Yeah, exactly. And it is, I think it's a very clear way of just like, I think about habits all the time because we don't usually think of thoughts as habits, but they are. And, um, you know, that connects to this whole. Like body and mind not being dichotomous, but being, still being distinct, but, you know, we understand with our bodies when we do that, that we have good habits or bad habits, but we don't understand that our thinking is that way too, [00:41:00] and that it's also just as kind of constrained or unconstrained by what we, the conditions in which we put ourselves in, in terms of those thought spaces, right?
Lucas Vos: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you can see how the things you do with your body can shape the way you think. Absolutely.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. That gets to the nature because I was, as you've been talking in a few times, I've thought of the shorts that you often produce and they're very natural in a sense of, um, like one can fill the, a different habit, right?
Yeah. Through usually visions of nature, whether it's, I don't know, a landscape or some rain or Is that on purpose? Is that, has that been part of your re patterning your habits of emotion and thought?
Lucas Vos: The shorts? That I post? The way
Andrea Hiott: you see the world, right? Yeah. Because the shorts are just little
Lucas Vos: Yeah.
Little visions from
Andrea Hiott: your Mindset. Kind of. I
Lucas Vos: would say so. I think like nature in general. Just feeling nature. I think that's. It sets you straight. You know. There's something about [00:42:00] it. It's, it's extremely transformative.
Andrea Hiott: Well, being out there and noticing it, right? Just actually not walking through these spaces, caught in patterns of thought, but looking at them.
I feel like that's what you're doing with the camera. You're like, look guys, like look at girls, look people, look everyone. Yeah.
Lucas Vos: Yeah. It's observing. It's attending. And that's what I'm saying about the mystery as well. And the mystery is all around us. In a sense, so you can attend to it at all times, but I think especially in natural places and in sacred spaces as well, um, it can become present to you more easily.
You know, there's people that can meditate on a busy street, you know, but, but going to nature actually affords that, that type of mind state much more easily. And so, so yeah, that's. That's like, that's extremely important to me, actually. I live, I live just next to a forest. I'm looking out on it now and close to a beach.
So it's, it's actually very important to me when I, um, when I was going to study, start going to start [00:43:00] studying three years ago, three and a half years ago, I didn't care so much where I lived. I just looked on the map wherever there's green because I just knew that would be an important part of my sanity.
Um. That's great.
Andrea Hiott: Probably made a big difference.
Lucas Vos: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.
Andrea Hiott: So how did you, so you, let's say it was your, your teenage years before you started studying when you started changing these, these habits in a way. And I'm interested in how that. Brought you your path because you're you're kind of changing your path.
You're changing this mimetic triangular, yeah, and How did that bring you to your to the love right? I mean, there's many kinds of love But if I feel like you've discovered a love that's opening you as a person that's what you just said, right? That's helped you in the ways you need it. So I'm wondering how these paths, where are these paths found one another?
Lucas Vos: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good question. It's also, it's really not obvious based [00:44:00] on where I was going because I was onto the track of the self help and, um, I still still see a lot of, I see it actually becoming more and more popular nowadays, the waking up at 5am and the, the hours of running, um, that's what I was in for a short time.
Um, so what happened was I actually had a very fortunate experience with, uh, psychedelics, specific psychedelic called ayahuasca. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Um, yeah, that was quite a gamble. Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: I've never done it, I have to say, but I know, I know it.
Lucas Vos: Yeah. That was a big gamble for me because I was, I was 18 or 19, no, I was 18 when I got really interested in this, where I just heard people transform and I was at this time still very much stuck in a materialistic view of reality, reductionist view, let's say.
Were you already
Andrea Hiott: waking up at 5am and doing all that? Were you? Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah. You were in that kind of a Yeah, I was in
Lucas Vos: that zone, like, working in the morning. Do you want to unpack
Andrea Hiott: that just a minute before? Because you kind of [00:45:00] brought it up, and I know what you mean, because people get, we can also turn our attention to becoming obsessed with what we think of as healthy habits, which isn't really what the answer is either.
Lucas Vos: Yeah, that's what, that's where I was at, absolutely. Okay, why don't you unpack
Andrea Hiott: that a minute too?
Lucas Vos: Yeah, absolutely. So, I was, yeah, I just finished high school, And got into self help, got into reading those books. They're mostly nonfiction, just helping, uh, just trying to become healthier, I guess, and also richer.
So I was reading a lot of investment books and really was a very materialistic way of being, if I look back on it, cause it was focused on the biological and the financial in a sense, but, but yeah, I got inspired by, you know, certain individuals and certain ideas of. Of optimization of health, for example, um, which ironically doesn't take into account so much, the, the social or the spiritual, um, [00:46:00] but yeah, it, it got inspired to squeeze out every part of my day, become becoming as productive as possible.
I've always liked a little bit of structure. In my life, uh, my mother always told me that I like structure and so I started just planning out my days, like all of my day, uh, so yeah, yeah, almost all, almost on the hour, let's say. So even
Andrea Hiott: most productive and optimal in terms of exactly.
Lucas Vos: And that was actually like looking back on it, I always tell people that that was actually really good for me, but it had to be temporary.
Um,
Andrea Hiott: that's a good point to, uh, to this either, or it's not that that was bad, but
Lucas Vos: yeah, yeah, it serves a function in a moment. So that being imbalanced is not always bad, but it has to be in service of something else. And so I would wake up at five, I would run, sometimes I would run half a marathon just in the Wednesday and I would.
Um, I had a [00:47:00] job that I worked just in the morning and I would play piano every, every day for an hour, um, some, somehow instrumentally, like not even playing piano for playing the piano, but just playing piano to become better, um, and language learning. And I would read a certain amount of pages every day and, um, there must be other habits that I'm forgetting about, but just, yeah, basically, basically that was a phase of
Andrea Hiott: piano.
In all aspects, trying to improve, right? Optimize. And
Lucas Vos: it was good to a degree, but at some point my brother, bless my brother, I love him to death. He would always just try to steal, not steal man, to um, play the devil's advocate a bit with me. He'd be like, okay, but hey, uh, you know, you haven't spoken to your friends in this time and like, is this sustainable, this type of path?
And um, yeah, he basically always has helped me. Get a bit, get a bit closer to, [00:48:00] to goodness. I think, I think that he's always done that, whether consciously or subconsciously, but he's always been a very good influence on me. Sounds like
Andrea Hiott: he also helps you see yourself too. Like what we're talking about. So you don't get
Lucas Vos: swept
Andrea Hiott: up in the inertia of whatever and not take that step back, which we have to do it every day.
So we need people to help us, but
Lucas Vos: yeah, people are, they can help you reflect. Indeed. And I didn't have a lot of people around me, so there wasn't a lot that happened in your
Andrea Hiott: world. Yeah.
Lucas Vos: So, so yeah, that was that phase. And I was also listening to a lot of podcasts at the time, just whatever I would find interesting.
It's also started my fascination for history and ancient history. So it's partially where I got interested in Egypt. Um, but yeah, then I heard multiple people who had done certain psychedelics are reading up on psychedelics. Um, basically. You know, from a materialist frame, psychedelics are transcendence in sense.
So the, they [00:49:00] are, they are when people describe it like the, almost the only passageway out of that, especially if you're really deeply entrenched in that. And I, and I was so, whereas I think a lot of people are just more, um, they're just a bit more open and a bit more in tune with their spirituality. They might not need such a blast of something and such a, a, breaking of the frame as I had, but I feel like I really did need that, or at least it turned out to be extremely fruitful and helpful for me.
So I got interested in that and I, I did a, um, a session just in my country and, um,
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, that got me too. For that, isn't it?
Lucas Vos: Sorry?
Andrea Hiott: The Netherlands is a good place for being able to do that in. Well, it was actually still illegal.
Lucas Vos: It was still illegal, but, um, it's, it's better than other places for sure. Like it's in Dutch, we have this saying that it's, um, Illegaal maar wel [00:50:00] gedogen.
It means something like it's illegal but it's kind of condoned like it's okay. Um, but like they had a public website and everything so you could just do it. Um, but yeah I did that and That basically showed me, it convinced me that there was so much more to reality than I could have ever imagined. And I think it really opened up my view of reality.
I think it broke a lot of frames, a lot of, you know, those, when I spoke about the ground that we stand on, that's actually useful fiction, it kind of blasted away that, and then it leaves you with this blank slate almost, and that's why there's a negative potential there as well, you know, people get into cults.
Um, I guess it could
Andrea Hiott: be scary, right? If you're not, if you don't know, then you don't know what to hold on to if the patterns have suddenly opened like that.
Lucas Vos: Exactly. Exactly. So you come out of it with, at least I did, it's an overwhelming feeling of love, but also a [00:51:00] certain sense of confusion. Like I couldn't speak for two hours after it.
And I couldn't believe that the apple that I was holding in my hand was, was real and, and things like that. But I was extremely opened up to, for example, my religious upbringing. Uh, I had much more sympathy for it when I came out of it, my parents, they picked me up. They prayed for me before. And, um,
Andrea Hiott: Oh, that's very, it's very sweet.
Yeah. Family to support you. Cause a lot of people, they have to hide it from everyone they know. And
Lucas Vos: yeah, no, they didn't. They're very, very supportive, but also very worried. Yeah, of
Andrea Hiott: course. Of course. But
Lucas Vos: yeah, I was, I was at past 18, so they, they had to,
Andrea Hiott: why did you choose ayahuasca? Can I ask? Cause you could have done something like.
Some kind of mushroom or, I mean, that is legal in the Netherlands. Yeah.
Lucas Vos: That just see, Ayahuasca seems like the most intense possible thing that I don't think anyone does it coming back. Like, oh yeah, it was okay. Like almost everyone comes out of it with like a complete transformation. And that's what I was looking for at the time.[00:52:00]
Um, so I've always been a kind of zero or a hundred type of person.
Andrea Hiott: I was about to say it fits with the way you were doing the habits beforehand. Exactly.
Lucas Vos: And I still am that to a certain degree, but I try to minimize that a bit, but yeah, so
Andrea Hiott: it's part of you and embrace it and channel it the right way.
Yeah, you
Lucas Vos: can channel it properly. Exactly. But yeah, I was, I was very well surrounded afterwards as well. This is when I got into John Fafeke. This is when I got into, um, philosophy and theology. And I think doing that, After having broken open your worldview, it can make you so much more open to different theories and views of reality that I think.
How did you find
Andrea Hiott: John Vivacchi, by the way? You've mentioned him like three or four times. And to be honest, I'm taking it as a sign. I need to now.
Lucas Vos: I think you would love to speak to him. I think you would make for a great, um,
Andrea Hiott: well, I need to first study him. So maybe you can recommend where I should start.
Yeah, I will recommend anyone
Lucas Vos: listening, um, his YouTube series, which is extremely [00:53:00] popular. It's called awakening from the meaning crisis in which he basically.
Andrea Hiott: Awakening from.
Lucas Vos: The meaning crisis.
Andrea Hiott: The meaning crisis. Okay. Yeah. So the meaning
Lucas Vos: crisis is something he's really popularized as a, as a concept that we are currently in this day and age suffering from a crisis of meaning.
And he is a cognitive scientist as well as a philosopher. Um, so he's got an, I think he's got an MA and a BA in philosophy. I'm pretty sure. And then he had a PhD in cognitive science. At least he's well versed in, in both of those and he does in that series, he does a, he runs through basically almost a history of thought, but he connects that to meaning making into cognitive science and to practical things that you can do in your life.
Um, but yeah, he's, he's very influential. He's been very influential on me and the way I got into touch with him was through my brother. Who is, you know, more philosophically oriented. So he's always recommended me people to listen to, or music to listen to, or things to think about. And he's always kind [00:54:00] of, you know, poked holes into my worldview, um, every step along the way.
So he's, that's been very helpful. Um, but yeah, that's when I got into all of that. And then because I was so well surrounded as well, and I had my father to talk to. My father's a theologian, and my father talked to him about some mystic texts. So you
Andrea Hiott: came out of this space where you realized there's much more to the world, there's much more to everything, I guess.
Your patterns were kind of, you realized those patterns were patterns, which is a way of like almost opening to what patterns I'm going to create. And then you started with these conversations with your family.
Lucas Vos: Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: And
Lucas Vos: listening.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah,
Lucas Vos: just trying to, yeah, exactly. Really listening to other people that are.
Wiser than I am and smarter than I am. And then speaking a lot to people that I loved and my father was helpful because so he's a theologian. And I went through the new Testament with him as well as through a Gnostic, a Christian Gnostic text. And I was [00:55:00] just reading it. You're both
Andrea Hiott: like, you both sat together and every day or some, or often we did a
Lucas Vos: weekly, um, discussion of just one chapter of the new Testament.
We did that for a while. So we went through that and just trying to help me to. understand because I had so much, so many hangups with, um, the faith that I was brought up in. And I've come much more at peace with it. I'm not a church goer. Um, at the moment, maybe I will be, maybe I won't be, cause I still have some, some issues, but I've become much more comfortable with, my Christian identity and a lot of Christian ideas through him and through that experience because it allowed me to see it in a different way.
Whereas before I was approaching it as a scientific equation and a book full of forensic facts. Now, I think I can see it as an extremely powerful. Um, I think I see the Bible as, as, as, Symbolically, extremely powerful and true on some level in many cases. But yeah, he helped me a lot with that. [00:56:00] And, um, then I was very positively influenced by a lot of people online.
And then I got started on, uh, talking as well, uh, just a year ago. So now I just like to speak to people as well. Um, but I've gotten a bit away from the ideas and a bit more into the personal. Um, because I think like I told you earlier in this conversation, there's only certain lengths to which you can go with talking about this.
You can do it very beautifully with trying to hold the paradox and attending to the mystery and using words to refer beyond words, but that doesn't always happen. And I feel like with the personal. There's something really beautiful about individuals where they are. I feel like they're irreducible in some sense if you let them unfold in front of you.
So they're, they're homeless. Um, so yeah, that pulls me a lot nowadays, uh, as we're, as we're almost wrapping up, but yeah,
Andrea Hiott: it's no rush. It's okay. Yeah.
Lucas Vos: [00:57:00] So yeah,
Andrea Hiott: well, it's almost, um, I mean, we hadn't said the word, but when you were talking about with your, with your dad and these study sessions, but also the way that you started listening, I guess it feels like love to me.
It feels like a space of love in terms of letting your parents love you and maybe also accepting that love from your parents. Not without it needing to be quantifiable or scientific, um, and I guess that has to do with the way you feel about yourself, right? To go back to that theme of that way you were being hard on yourself, criticizing yourself, trying to live up to other patterns that don't feel like love to me.
Does that make any sense?
Lucas Vos: Yeah, love became my biggest, to love became my biggest goal and to spread love. Um, and it still is, I think, to, to embody it and, and I think it's, it's at the foundation of reality because I see reality as relational and I think love is [00:58:00] essential in that relationship. So, um, before we end, what you're
Andrea Hiott: doing in your conversations, opening that space somehow or trying to learn how to sit in that space or.
Lucas Vos: Yeah, the, the, one of the most important things about the podcast that I do, which is very small scale also for a reason, um, is that relationality is the most important thing to me in the podcast. So getting to know people and to, to let them be heard and to hold space for them. Um, so I had a while there where I had some couple of bigger guests on, and then I noticed that that just wasn't very good for me.
I started to. Yeah, I just noticed that I had a kind of a bad response to it. And then I wanted to one up the guests that I had every time. And then I was like, okay, I need to tone down. So then I very consciously was like, okay, I'm just going to stick to some random people that I think are beautiful to talk to.
And that's, that's been really good. Um, and so that's actually a really nice [00:59:00] practice in my week, but it's actually something that I tried to do. offline mostly. Uh, there just happens to be one conversation every week that I record so that I can speak to some people overseas and, uh, some people that I'm particularly interested in.
But it's been really, uh, gratifying and, and, and fun to do and meaningful.
Andrea Hiott: So the way you want to live your life then is in conversation in this way or something? It's a
Lucas Vos: part of, uh, life and it's a way to, to make relationships and to strengthen them and to maintain them to, to talk. I think conversation is.
Well, it can be beautiful and I think communication is really important. And I'm trying to talk to, to so many different people to somehow transcend the separateness and to come to a reality that's a bit more connected. And I think that's something that is the opposite of what our society sometimes feels like, especially with the digital age [01:00:00] and with people feeling that, um, their neighbors are their enemies sometimes.
Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. I mean, just from my perspective, to see someone who's so young and who's trying to find a different way to set different patterns, right? Not, not just going with the inertia of assuming this is good and this is bad and this is cool and this is not. And because, you know, just by doing it, you start to open up the fact that that can be done, right?
That that's a possibility for other people, uh, that are around you. And I don't think it's, is it an easy thing to do or, I mean, I, something I was wondering about before we talked was like the pressure you might feel from positive things, like that you're, for example, the way you look, right?
That people expect you because of, because of the privilege you talked about before. Um, or because of even being like handsome. We once talked about that you were modeling and stuff and that that's a lot of weird pressure. Um, these [01:01:00] things that people don't think of as like pressurized. I wonder if this has helped you deal with some of that too.
Cause when you were talking about like with the guests, right, where you want to one up, um, there can also be a way in which when you do have. Yeah. success or when people do see you in this way that the old you would have wanted more of. Yeah. That becomes pressure. Do you know what I mean?
Lucas Vos: Yeah, I do. I do.
Sometimes it comes back. Like I had a, I'm still doing a little bit of modeling and I had a job recently and you know, I noticed it as well on myself. It was like, Oh, this could actually be something. But then I'm like, well, you know, and same with the podcast, there's, there's lower parts of me that then want that.
But I think the higher part of me is always more dominant. And And, and I feel more aligned than I used to be. And so right now to speak more practically, I, I was asked to go to Italy. In September and October, for example, to work, uh, instead of, well, [01:02:00] yeah, to, to live there for two months and to do a lot of castings and to really stay there for,
Andrea Hiott: yeah,
Lucas Vos: and I've done it before and it was a helpful experience, but also after that I was like, this is not for me.
Um, and so then there's a part of me is like, well, you should really do that. But then in the end, I've decided to, to walk a different path instead. And I said no to it, and I'm not going to become a school teacher. So that's something. Oh, really? I was going to
Andrea Hiott: ask about. Yeah. So you, yeah. Tell me a little more about that before you do too.
Um, is, have you, I mean, there could be a way to, that's not either or for this stuff too, isn't it? Yeah, I do a little bit
Lucas Vos: like it's okay. It's just, it can't be the way
Andrea Hiott: you're thinking about it, I guess, isn't it? Yeah. It's
Lucas Vos: like how, how it affects your mind and yeah. You know, if you do it and it turns on your vanity and it turns on your ego, then it's not good.
I found it fine to do a job and it was okay. It didn't do much bad with me, but I think [01:03:00] if I start to live somewhere for two months and do that exclusively, uh, I'm not so sure if that would be good. And especially if I do it instead of doing something like this, where. Um, yeah, I think becoming a school teacher for me really aligns with what I'm trying to do in life, just to connect with people and to spread love and to, I really like to educate and to inspire the younger generation as well.
I think that's really, uh, one of the highest things I can do with my time at the moment. So when I saw that as an opportunity, I was like, that's. Probably one of the best things I can do with my life. Totally.
Andrea Hiott: Uh, I mean, two things I have to say is, um, it's like what you were saying before, what we were talking about of what you put yourself in, the regularities you surround yourself with, even if you're the most enlightened person are going to.
You know, create the parameters of your life. So if you're surrounded by people who are worried about how they look and trying to look better than one another, which I know what that world is like. It's just like that. And people telling you what's wrong with you all the [01:04:00] time or what you should fix.
There's no way you can't help, but change the parameters and regularities of your life are going to shift in that direction. I mean, no matter how enlightened you are. And it's not that it's a bad thing, but it is a choice, right? You, you step back enough to know, okay, I'll be making the choice to be setting those parameters in my life.
Or, this other one you took, which I have to tell you, just yesterday I had. Lunch with one of my best friends because I'm in the states right now. And um, she's a school teacher and I think she's probably changed people's life more than almost anyone I've met and and also even on the podcast, uh, or even in like life having conversations, almost every person, I would say 65 to 70 percent of people end up saying it was some teacher who gave them some book. Yeah. Or that changed or opened up or that, or that some teacher noticed something about them and just spoke it.
And it changed the trajectory of their life. So, yeah, you couldn't choose a more important thing to do from my perspective, [01:05:00] having Thank
Lucas Vos: you.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah.
Lucas Vos: That's awesome.
Andrea Hiott: So, tell me a bit about when does that start or what is that like? Oh, yeah. That feels exciting.
Lucas Vos: It is. So basically there's a big like shortage in the Netherlands of teachers, probably in other places as well.
And so I saw, I was just looking to see if there's any full time jobs that I could just start right now. Uh, and I saw this as a, it's, it's a job from the start. So you get paid from the start, but it's also an education. So normally you'd have to do a four year track to become a school teacher in the Netherlands, but this is a sped up one.
So it's done in two years. Um, and then the first six months are more of a trial period where you. You're at a school and you're helping, but, um, you're not fully into the education yet. And so, yeah, I saw that and I was like, that, that fits perfectly. And that's starting in two weeks. And then next week I have some introduction things and I still have to prepare to school.
But, um, It makes
Andrea Hiott: me almost want to cry because. I can just imagine all these kids, it's exactly what we've been talking about in a way, like all these [01:06:00] kids having a role model like you, right? Just someone, and I don't mean to put more pressure on you because you don't need to be perfect, and you don't need to do this for your whole life or something or whatever, but I mean, just.
Someone who knows what you know and has stepped back and isn't in that trap that you we all saw. Yeah, we were kids I mean, I'm a lot older than you but I mean it makes such a huge difference So I feel emotional to think of you going into that because it feels to me it fits very well with all this I didn't expect it.
It's a surprise and that's probably part of it, too. And also just it feels like You're going to give so much, maybe you don't know it even, but just by being there, I can already imagine, you know?
Lucas Vos: Yeah, I hope so. Thank you so much for those words. It means a lot.
Andrea Hiott: I want to hear last thing. I mean, there's a big thing that we haven't talked about much yet, and it is connected to all this and, that's that you've gotten married and, so how do you see that relationship and, and that. source of, of love [01:07:00] when it comes to these other things?
Has it, because I feel like you and your wife have a lot of conversation, not online. I mean, not in, but it feels conversational. I mean, how would you, how does all that connect to what we've been talking about? Maybe.
Lucas Vos: Yeah. Okay. So I met my wife through yoga class. She teaches yoga and that was three years ago in the university.
She has this
Andrea Hiott: embodied.
Lucas Vos: Yeah, she has, she had, when I met her was like, Oh, she has got everything that I don't in a sense. Like she, she's like, she's gonna complete my puzzle and that's what happened basically. And I first met her thinking that she would never be interested in me. She's a bit older than me.
Uh, and I was a first year student, you know? So, so we got to build a solid bond first and we spoke a lot after classes and I would just ask her questions about yoga and about a bunch of things. We had a lot of meaningful conversations, most of which like I forgot the content, but I remember the [01:08:00] connection and that was always very profound and very powerful.
And, um, she kind of, I think, made me like less obsessed with all the books on the podcast. Cause I was just listening the whole day, , and reading the whole day. And yeah, I think that she, she allowed me to become more embodied. Um, And I see yoga as a wisdom practice and she teaches it really well. I think having been taught now by more teachers as well, I'm really grateful for that.
And, yeah, that relationship has been the best relationship in my life, I would say. Um, I think that I was very certain from the start and she was as well. I wanted to get married right away, actually. She was like, let's wait a bit.
Andrea Hiott: And
Lucas Vos: that proved to be a wise decision because now we've had a beautiful wedding with our families and, um, And it's, yeah, it's, it's like I said before in the podcast, it's made me much more complete.
Like she [01:09:00] would call me out on so many stupid things that I was doing, like things that were just not serving me, uh, things that were a little bit too extreme. Like I would fast the whole day and I would eat one meal because I'd want it to be focused and all these things. Like, um, so that's, that's been an extreme, extremely good help in my life.
And, um, it's the foundation that she's what grounds me and she is, she is like my favorite person to talk to. And, uh, so I'm very privileged to have her. She's just right behind over there somewhere. That's
Andrea Hiott: beautiful. So yeah, that's, and
Lucas Vos: it fits in with all of this in the sense that I think being in a intimate relationship with, with one person in some sense is, yeah, it's, it's, it's in a way it's reflective of, of reality, you know, this relationality, what we were talking about.
Yeah. Um, I think it's really good to have someone to share life with because life is not monological. I think life is, you know, found in the relationship, in the in between, and [01:10:00] in the dialogue. So, it's a pleasure to share that.
Andrea Hiott: Well, I'm so glad you found it. And just having heard you talk about her, it does feel like she sort of turns you back towards the world.
She does into your body and into real life. And
Lucas Vos: yeah, I was floating there for a while. She, she, she brought me back. Like we always joke about, she has a, she has a moon tattooed on her, on her shoulder. And I met her that's like representing, um, The feminine and that's the more spiritual. And she herself is more of that masculine son type of energy.
And so, uh, she, she got me interested in also getting a tattoo. I only have like three little small ones, but I got a sun because I was the opposite. Like I was all the way to the feminine and to the spiritual and almost like drifting in that, like, So disconnected from the world almost like I was just checking out and meditating and, and, uh, I'd say, yeah, she brought that back to my life to, [01:11:00] to allow me to become more whole.
And I hope to do the same with her. So I provide her the other side of the coin.
Andrea Hiott: Oh, that's so wonderful. And actually that's a perfect place to stop talking today because it's actually where we started, right? This. this, uh, coincidence of opposites or the paradox that you hold that becomes the most rich portal, right?
The portal into real living. So it's wonderful that you found that with two bodies, right? Um, in the world. Beyond dichotomy. Exactly. Beyond dichotomy. Well, um, Lucas, i, I'm so glad that you and your wife are in the world doing what you're both doing and, uh, let's keep talking.
I want to hear how the school stuff goes. Um, so let's check back in about that later. Likewise.
Lucas Vos: Thank you so much for your time. It's always good to speak to you. Let's speak again. Thank you. [01:12:00]
Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language: https://www.patternlanguage.com/
More on Christopher Alexander: https://www.pps.org/article/calexander David Seamon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_S...
Anne Buttimer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Bu...
Henri Bortoft, The Wholeness of Nature: https://www.amazon.com/Wholeness-Natu...
Environmental and Architectural Phenomenology: https://ophen.org/series-377
Goethe's Theory of Colours: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50572...
Kevin Lynch Image of the City: https://www.miguelangelmartinez.net/I...
Edward Relph, Place and Placelessness: https://uk.sagepub.com/en-gb/eur/plac...
Jeff Malpas, Place and Experience: https://www.routledge.com/Place-and-E...
Place, Placelessness, Inside, Outside: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/51656...
Edward Casey's Getting Back into Place: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Back-I...
David Seamon Books: Life Takes Place: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/m...
A Geography of the Life World: https://www.routledge.com/A-Geography...
Phenomenological Perspectives on Place, Life, Worlds, and Lived Emplacement: https://www.routledge.com/Phenomenolo...
#davidseamon #andreahiott #christopheralexander
www.andreahiott.com
www.loveandphilosophy.com
These are conversations I’ve been having with scientists, artists, & philosophers to understand how our approach to life and cognition might address some of the urgent divides we face today. It started as part of my philosophical (academic) research in phenomenology and neuroscience whereby I elucidate the practice of holding the paradox when it comes to the philosophy and science of mind. By love and philosophy, I mean the people, passions, and ideas that move us, shape the trajectories of our lives, and co-create our wider social landscapes. Partly due to my trajectory in philosophy, embodied cognition, neuroscience & technology, I’m hoping to better observe binary distinctions in our academic & personal lives (science vs. spiritual, mental vs. physical, technological vs. biological). What positive roles have these structures played? How might rethinking these structures & their parameters open new paths & ecological potentials? The Substacks for those who want to go deeper: L & P: https://lovephilosophy.substack.com/
TRANSCRIPT:
We Are Place: The Deep Connection Between Environment and Identity
[00:00:00]
Andrea Hiott: it's almost like the simplest thing, this kind of message that we are place. And place changes as we change and the experience of place changes as we change our presence. And yet it's like, as Alexander says, and as David says here, I think it's the thing that nobody really is paying attention to. I mean I'm from the United States and you drive down most. Roads there.
And it's just piles of kind of weird ugly signs. There's not a rhythm and a pattern that makes you feel good. About those places, but there could be. And, uh, I can go into all of Alexander's work, but he really shows how to think about all these places of everyday life and how, if we just took, took a moment and looked at it the way we. Arrange and design things like signs and buildings. We could actually have a very different. Experience of being in the world.
And this translates into our relationships with ourself and others.