The Philosophy of Bioregionalism with Felix de Rosen and Andrea Hiott
Episode #68
This is a conversation about the philosophy of bioregionalism with Félix de Rosen, a landscape architect and gardener. In this episode, Felix shares his fascinating journey from studying political science at Harvard to his passion for the natural world and Bioregionalism.
Andrea & Félix explore the philosophy of organizing human societies around naturally defined areas, discussing complex systems and the importance of finding community. This conversation is an exploration of the intersections of ecology, culture, and personal growth through Felix's experiences and insights on creating sustainable and meaningful connections with the land and one other.
00:00 Introduction to Bioregionalism
00:43 Félix de Rosen's Background and Journey
01:30 Complex Systems and Community
02:53 Felix's Personal Reflections
05:21 The Importance of Place and People
21:34 Discovering Landscape Architecture
26:37 Understanding Bioregionalism
30:11 Exploring Systems Thinking and Worldview
31:38 The Intersection of Gardens and Worldviews
36:06 Frustrations and Realizations in Landscape Architecture
39:45 The Importance of Systems Thinking
42:54 Bioregionalism and Community Building
48:01 Bridging Political Divides through Bio Regionalism
52:25 International Bioregional Projects
54:37 The Role of Love and Connection to Earth
01:00:30 Agency Deficit Disorder and Hope for the Future
01:01:28 Conclusion and Ways to Connect
Links:
Polycultura: Planetary Design and Communication
A talk from Felix at the Harvard commencement
The Bioregional Learning Center inspired by Donella Meadows
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00]
Hello everyone. Welcome to Love and Philosophy. This is Andrea. Today we are talking about Bio Regionalism with Felix de Rosen and Bio Regionalism is a philosophy that looks at sustainable boundaries, thinking of them as organized around more naturally defined areas, which they call bio regions instead of.
The ways we tend to divide politically, for example, or even geographically. so it's a different kind of philosophy of how we're thinking about space. And it's a lot related to complex systems, which makes a lot of sense because Fliks is a landscape architect and he's also a gardener.
He's published books about gardens, very beautiful books, which I'll link to in the show notes. we talk about how he got into this, his education through Harvard in a completely different subject, and how he ended up finding his way to the land, or also just to finding a group of people that he understood and that understood him.
If you listened to the last episode [00:01:00] with Ha de Jager, we actually talk about these same issues from a more philosophical perspective and thinking about loving and knowing. we mention these ideas of complex systems So I thought it's good to go ahead and publish this conversation with Felix because we really go into the more, natural side of our connections to life and what that means.
But we also talk about it through similar themes to what Hannah and I talked about in terms of finding the people who understand you and how this can be. hard to do. So this gets us into thinking about what community is, how we might think of it differently, what we might learn from gardens and gardening in that system, in that regard. Because gardens are complex systems. Before we name them that and people who are working. With the land are working with complex systems.
No matter if we call them complex systems or think of them through that literature or not, because those are just words and ways we've tried to understand what's actually happening in life.
I think it was in the Kevin Kelly [00:02:00] episode, I talked about planting some flowers and that we had tried to plant some vegetables and. One of the things we planted were sunflowers and they grew huge. I mean, they're really huge, taller than the first floor. So I've never seen sunflowers grow so huge, but they also became very heavy at the top where the bloom is.
So they're sort of starting to fall over. And I thought about that in this conversation because Felix talks about. Himself and how as he was growing and learning so much, he, he was very smart and he got, he says he got very top heavy and I was thinking of that in terms of the sunflowers of how the seemingly most beautiful part, this bloom, this huge bloom that comes out at the top, makes it top heavy and then it starts to bend over and it sort of needs some help.
We had to kind of help it stay straight. But it still looks for the sun and sometimes it even curves back up and finds the sun. So I don't know. I was thinking about that in this conversation because Felix talks about growing up between worlds. He's French and [00:03:00] American, and I think a lot of you will understand what that's like when you're growing up between languages.
You can feel like you don't fit in at all. It made me think of this friend of mine, Jane Sue. I don't know where she is in the world these days, but she was a friend of mine when I was a kid, and I remember thinking how strange it must be for her because she went home. And spoke one language with her family, and her family didn't actually speak English or not very well.
They were learning, and then she came to school and was only speaking English. I just say that because there's a lot of us living in a lot of different worlds, and Felix talks about that in a really interesting way here and about this feeling of alienation that also can come. Growing up in suburbia in the United States, which I know very well, this kind of strange feeling where you don't feel quite connected to anything.
You're always in a car or an air conditioned room or or something. And it can feel very alienating. And as a kid you have no idea that this is happening. But there's a very sensory state to it, at least that I remember very well, and I think others might too. And it's interesting to [00:04:00] hear Felix talk about that and how.
He realized that and then sort of found ways of, of dealing with it. Something else he says, I think that's very, very interesting and that's come back to me a lot since I've re-listened to this conversation over the past week or two, is he talks about how we don't have to solve the world, it just needs to be tended to.
I think that's a really interesting idea to hold in mind, at least for me, where it seems like you wanna solve problems or make things better somehow when, It's caring for them or just these very small changes and additions and subtractions of life that make all the difference. So this one is about gardening landscapes, the way we think of space systems, how systems thinking helps us hold contradictions, and finding the people that understand you. They're there somewhere. So keep looking if you haven't found them yet. If you have, appreciate them because that's what we're here for.
All right. Here we go.
Andrea Hiott: hi Felix. Thank you for being here today. [00:05:00] It's great to see you. I just thought maybe I'll let you introduce yourself.
What would you like for people to know about you? I.
Félix de Rosen: Hi, Andrea. I'm first of all very happy to be here. Thank you for sharing this time for this invitation, and thanks to the readers and listeners for, um, also participating. Um, so my name is s uh, Felix DeRozen. I am a French, uh, human, French born human, raised in the us, pretty global citizen, um, working at the intersection of ecology and, uh, systems change.
And, um, also a really passionate, curious, um, explorer of, uh, ways of being in right relationship with reality.
Andrea Hiott: An important idea right now, you seem to have a very deep source of knowledge that is with The natural world so called if [00:06:00] we wanna try to distinguish it like that.
And so I wonder about that, about your experience of how you've gained knowledge through through your relationship with the natural world. And I wonder if you might talk about that a bit or so first, knowledge, where have you mostly gotten your knowledge from in life?
Félix de Rosen: So, um. Starting with, uh, knowledge, that's a big, big questions. one of the more helpful frameworks in my life is understanding that, um, as a human being, I have a certain distinct set of characteristics, but I'm also part of a wider fabric of nature. So, um, uh, looking at a tree or looking at an animal or looking at a wave, um, or looking at the movement of clouds, I, see certain patterns that are replicated.
Um. [00:07:00] My body and my emotions in different ways. And this is, you know, nothing new. This is what, uh, um, animistic and shamanic cultures have, um, in many ways been working with since time immemorial. And in many ways it's, it's the, it's the common shared spirituality of, of humanity. Um, and, and, um, this way of knowing the world also is present in the, uh, the monotheistic religions too, uh, just with more layers of, of, um, of, of ceremony or of of doctrine in between that sometimes confuses things.
Um, so, you know, I get my knowledge by, um, by understanding that there's a. Um, a fundamental interconnection between humans and, and the living world. We are, we are a fundamental [00:08:00] core part of nature and not a separate, and not separate from it. And, and it's obvious, maybe it sounds obvious to say it, but it needs to be repeated because, uh, we live in a world right now where, you know, our dominant culture is really sending us a lot of messages that humans are, um, really not part of nature.
Like, nature is where we, you know, go out on holidays and have picnics and then, you know, we spend the rest of our lives in, in, in cities and in offices. Um,
Andrea Hiott: I'm really interested in sort of where you were as a child and what nature was for you in terms of how you came into know yourself or know the world and how that connected into what you wanted to study in these systems of education.
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. So I mean, I, I grew up, um, in very, I grew up in American suburbia. You know, I was, I was born in France. Um. And I grew up in a French speaking household in the US so it was a little bit [00:09:00] schizophrenic because I was speaking French at home. And then, um, would go to the school, um, with my American kids, uh, friends.
And I was usually the only, um, non-American there. Um, and I would, you know, we would go back as a family to, to France, um, every year. So I had also an experience of really living in between two cultures. And, and the reality is, is I never really felt, um, like it belonged to either.
Um, I was always the French kid in the US and the American kid, uh, in, in, in France. Uh, and so I think from a very earlier, early age, I, I. I did not identify primarily with, um, the cultures around me. I, I didn't have that, um, that luxury. Um, it would've been beneficial for me in some ways, to be honest.
Andrea Hiott: you really didn't identify with either one. Was it because you were [00:10:00] between them or not? Totally. Only in one, or
Félix de Rosen: it was because I did not see culture that felt really life-affirming around me on either side of the Atlantic. It took me, it, you know, this, this, uh, relationship with, with nature, this relationship with the living world, um, did not come to me easily.
Um, it came, um, I, I wasn't interested really in a very, in a rigorous way in plants until my late twenties when I, you know, went to graduate school. I, um, in my early twenties and mid twenties, I had, I went through a, a period of really difficult physical health, and that's what started opening the doors to, um, to being in better relationship with, uh, with the living world.
So I, um, I was going through a [00:11:00] lot of physical pain, a lot of chronic fatigue, and I had absolutely no resources to deal with it. Like I was, I mean, I had, I, I could go to doctors and specialists, but it was totally unhelpful. Um, and so I had to, you know, learn by myself things, uh, very basic things like, uh, um, you know, how to live healthily, how to, um, take care of my body, how to, uh, eat well, how to, um, understand myself better.
And a lot of that process led me to, um, to the, the greatest source of rest and inspiration, which is, you know, really the, the living, the living world around us. I'm, I'm looking this way because I have a big window to a beautiful landscape here. Yeah. It looks like light,
Andrea Hiott: just light pouring, pouring in. So you said this word, life affirming are two words, I guess.
So as a kid, you didn't. I guess I'm guessing you didn't grow up in the middle of a [00:12:00] glorious natural park or something, or, or did you, or what was not life like? How, as a kid, how does that feel? Obviously you felt it, not that you would've said, oh, life, it's not life affirming and those words, but what was it you were feeling then that you were missing?
Yeah, yeah.
Félix de Rosen: Um, I mean, I'll use a philosophical term here. I, I'd say alienation. Mm. Um, American suburbia is, you know, it's not unique, but it, it shares care. It's, it's exported, its its model in many parts of the world, but it's, it's very, um, you know, car focused. Um, it is a very inefficient use of, uh, of land.
And it is, um, it optimizes for the, for the individual. Uh, and the, I I think the [00:13:00] reality is that, you know, that has served a really practical purpose. You know, I don't wanna discount the, the, the positive aspects of giving people, you know, a certain level of freedom and material wellbeing. but there's only a certain, there's a limit to how, how much that works.
And, um, I think as a kid, I, I felt like there wasn't a larger vision, in place in the culture that, um, was really in tune with the full complexity of, um, I'd say the world in general, but specifically, you know, the, the region where we were living, and. You know, people make fun of the US for its strip malls.
Um, and, and these, you know, dozens and dozens of miles of, of, of, of a kind of concrete line boulevards with just a [00:14:00] shopping center at the shopping center. And there's unfortunately, there's a lot of truth to that, you know, and that was, uh, that was, that was hard to, it, it was hard to experience as a kid because they didn't have the language to really understand why I didn't like it.
Andrea Hiott: In your work, you often talk in a very sensual way, and I, I think working with gardens, I mean, you've written this book, what's the purpose of a garden or the purpose of a garden? Yeah. You've written about gardens, you're a landscape architect, you're working in. These issues of bio regionalism, which we'll get to, but there's always a sense of sensuality and of connection, in what I've seen in your work, even if it's in the images, the images that you choose or, and when I hear you talking about the alienation, it feels like the opposite of that.
And I also remember from my childhood, where you come out of one box and you get into another one, the car, and then, and there's a very different sensuality there that I remember as a kid I couldn't have explained, but it does feel like alienation. what you were describing about your university years too, when you [00:15:00] had this sickness, was that also a kind of alienation because you said no one could really help you.
Um, was it, is it similar to that feeling of almost being like in a, separated from that sensual connection?
Félix de Rosen: It was a, a big part of it, yeah. I mean, it's, there's, there's a, a lot of nuance and complexity to the story, but that is, um, a core, a core aspect of it.
Andrea Hiott: And how did you find Yeah, go ahead.
Félix de Rosen: Um, very simply learning, relearning what feels good and what doesn't, and then making decisions to change the course of my habits.
Andrea Hiott: was that a mental, like, noticing how you feel? Did you have to go to th some meditation or something? Or how did you come into awareness of these things? Yeah, I
Félix de Rosen: mean, uh, all, all every, it was, it was a, you know, it's, well, first of all, it, [00:16:00] I, I'll say that it's an ongoing process, right?
It's like a lifelong process. Um, so it was, yeah, uh, a lot of meditation, a. Some psychedelics and, and plant, plant, uh, plant medicines. and ultimately, um, finding community and friendly human beings who, are capable of understanding me. And I always, it sounds, you know, so ni simple and naive to say this, but it's like, I, it is really, it is really rare to, it's important to, to, to find those people.
Um, because, um, n not everyone is capable of really, uh, working with you, understanding you. And um, it took me a very, very long time to realize [00:17:00] that, oh, maybe I just haven't been hanging out with the right people. You know, I did, I did my undergrad at, um, at Harvard University. And I went to Harvard because at, you know, at the age of 17, I didn't know what to do other than to just go to what society told me was the best school around.
Um, and it ultimately wasn't the best environment for me. Um, because, you know, it's very, you know, a lot of, not only, but you know, predominantly type A individuals who have a lot of, um, intellectual, um, uh, resources, but a lot of growth, a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of needed growth in the emotional realm. And, um, so the environments that we find ourselves in is, is, is so, so important.
You what we, you know, what, what is, there's this saying that you are the, um, you are the sum of the four closest people in your life, right? So I, [00:18:00] I always think about that when I think about who, like, who am I surrounding myself with? What am I surrounding myself, myself with?
Andrea Hiott: Do you think of people as place?
I mean, do you, do you separate those? Of course, a person and the environment is different, but do you think of it as in the sense of what you're surrounding yourself with being, what's going to contribute and orient you in your life? Is it all of that for you now when you think about a healthy, a healthy surrounding?
Félix de Rosen: Yeah, I think, um, I, I mean, I, I think my model is that humans are part of nature and therefore people are, are part of place, um, whether they like it or not. Um, and. but there's definitely a spectrum. You know, there's, there's the unique qualities of place, the landscape, the weather, the flora, the fauna. and that inevitably influences culture.
Um, [00:19:00] and it doesn't mean that everyone is totally in tune with, with the, the unique qualities of place, but usually there is, you know, there is some influence. So, um, and, and some places have a deeper imprint on the, the, um, the mindset, the worldview, the spirituality of, of people. Um, one, one of the things I really like about the San Francisco Bay area where I'm living right now is that, There is a really deep appreciation of place amongst, uh, amongst many people here. Um, there's also a complete disregard of place at the same time. Um, so, you know, you have to, um, you have to pick and choose, um, what you dedicate your energy to.
Andrea Hiott: So when did you start to realize how important these things are place and the people that you surround yourself with and nature, these issues?
When did [00:20:00] that start to become something that you were consciously prioritizing thinking about? I,
Félix de Rosen: um,
well, I think it hap it happened in, in, in steps. Um, I've, I think always oriented towards the beauty of the living world. So I, I've, I've always, you know. Like to visit and spend time in, in beautiful places. Of course, visiting beautiful places and, and living, uh, a professional life and is, is not always, don't always go, uh, hand in hand.
so I have kind of learned to loosen slightly my, my grasp, my controlling tendency of wanting to optimize for place and community and, and work. Um, all of those [00:21:00] are incredibly important to my wellbeing and to anyone's wellbeing. so I, Have learned to not be perfectionist about it. Uh, and, and the San Francisco Bay area is, a place that has been a very good home for my learning in the, over the last eight years.
Now,
Andrea Hiott: I guess I'm trying to understand how you got from that moment at Harvard where you were feeling what you just described, and Yeah. How did you get from there to where you are now?
Félix de Rosen: Yeah, okay. That makes better. Yeah. Um, well, okay. Um, really what happened was, um, you know, I studied political science at Harvard.
I had a brief career in marketing, that didn't last very long. and 2016 rolled around, so that was eight years ago or nine years ago now. And, um. You know, and 2016 was the year where I really started to, dive deeply [00:22:00] into, uh, or to first dive deeply into the literature around the climate.
Uh, and where at the same time I felt that I needed to take greater responsibility for, um, my role within, like, on, on, on this planet. Um, previously, you know, I, I always felt a certain set of responsibility, but it was easy for me to just move around life and take a job here and take a job there and kind of, um, you know, enjoy myself and learn a few things.
And it was just, um, there wasn't really a lot of, um, I was missing at the time, a, a deeper, like a framework. To, um, channel my energy. Um, and so I really wanted to go back to school and I looked at different, [00:23:00] um, you know, different types of programs and, you know, ultimately I, I, I, I really just, I went, went through the exercise of writing down what are the things that matter the most to me.
And they were, uh, there were three things. They were, uh, nature, beauty, and people. and that led me to study landscape architecture. uh, so I was at uc, Berkeley for three years. I got a master of landscape architecture there. And it was very helpful because landscape architecture is, a you very unique discipline that is on the one hand, highly practical.
Um, it is about making a path. Or a staircase or a fence or a structure or foods to eat, in, in, in a way that people can use it. And on the other hand, it's also deeply, um, uh, [00:24:00] philosophical and, and, and spiritual and conceptual. And so it really, um, it was very good for me because especially at the time, I was very head in the clouds, great ideas.
You know, I'd read a lot of philosophy. Um, and, and, but it was very ungrounded, you know, great ideas about
Andrea Hiott: how to save the world or something, or
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. Or like, you know, things that the world, if only they knew this, or if only they, they, they understood this, then, you know, things would be a lot better.
and I think there's a certain point where I realized like my, you know, I was very top heavy. My knowledge was here and I needed something, um, to, to, to root it down in practical reality. Uh, and so, um, that's why I oriented myself towards landscape architecture. Um, to actually
Andrea Hiott: build something, make it happen with your hands is very different than [00:25:00] just to have all these grand ideas.
Félix de Rosen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, after, after school I, after graduating, it was mid pandemic. I worked as a gardener. Um, I worked as a landscape designer, um, as a, as a like a garden designer, mainly for kind of wealthy residents of the Bay Area. Um, I took on a few odd design jobs, designing installations. Um, and, you know, ultimately I, I realized that I, I needed to find some type of.
Mid ground between the, the, um, the conceptual and the, um, and, and the, and, and the grounded, uh, and practical between the system and the, and, and like systems thinking and, and place-based thinking. And, and that's how, you know, I ended up really orienting around the work that [00:26:00] I'm doing now with the Bio Ffi project, uh, which is, you know, an organization which is, um, you know, one of the leading voices in, um, by regionalism.
And the way that we go about it is by helping communities around the world, um, develop tools that can, um, welcome money finance capital into projects of, uh, of social and ecological regeneration. Um, so that's the journey in a, in a, in a nutshell.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. What does bio regionalism for those who've never heard of it, this is a idea I'm hearing a lot more mm-hmm.
Often lately, and I imagine it has very old roots, but this ver this term, is it a new term? Is it an old term? What is it?
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. Well, the caveat is, you know, as Satish Kumar, um, says, you know, every ism creates a schism. So, um, [00:27:00] um, bio regionalism, uh, is, um, a, a, um, a beautiful word, uh, that describes a, a, both a practical applied philosophy and also, um, an ecological philosophy, um, that argue for organizing human societies according to the unique qualities of place.
So, um, aligning economic activity and. The stewardship of, um, natural assets and governance, aligning all of those with, um, the, the, the natural systems and cultures of, of place. And it's called bio regionalism because of the word bioregion. And bioregion [00:28:00] is, um, short, uh, for biocultural region. And, um, what does it mean?
It means, you know, um, first of all, there's no one definition. um, but it broadly means, um, a bio region is a, is a region defined by, uh, three characteristics. Really physical characteristics like climate and topography, ecological characteristics like soil, flora, fauna, and um, cultural characteristics.
Like art and language. Um, so a bioregion is in contrast to say a political or administrative boundary. Um, and the reason why I find bio regionalism very interesting is because places have unique characteristics. Um, um, places, landscapes are the foundation of our lives, the [00:29:00] foundation of our culture, the foundation of our economies, the foundation of the food we eat, um, it of, of our energy.
Everything that we do, everything that we wear comes from the land and the waters and the air, right? Um, and I've gravitated towards this, um. This applied practical philosophy because, um, we are living in a moment right now where we don't really have a choice but to reorganize ourselves, uh, pretty radically according to what the earth can provide as opposed to, what we are capable of extracting from the earth.
Andrea Hiott: you said nature beauty people, that that was what you, I did. I guess you just write it down. That's what you cared about at that time or something. You just make a note of it. And then did that just immediately make you think about landscape in the [00:30:00] way that you just described or, yeah. It
Félix de Rosen: actually made me think more Initially I was thinking more about art.
Hmm, about art practice. That was where I was orienting a little bit. More in my, in my earlier days. Um, so I was visiting a lot of sculpture parks and looking at how art, you know, could interact with, with nature. Um, but I, I found myself more and more interested in, uh, looking at systems, um, looking at how, uh, the relationship between economy, ecology, culture, politics, and spirituality.
They're all deeply interlinked. and, um, Donald and Meadows, you know, the, um, the, the brilliant Sy American systems thinker, I think she's American. Um, she has this, uh, this essay about, um, the different [00:31:00] leverage points with within a system. And she says that the, the most powerful leverage point ultimately is, is, is worldview.
Uh, worldview is at the, is is at the heart, uh, of, our, our models of understanding reality, the tools that we use, uh, on a day-to-day basis. And so I, I think, I have tried to, in addition, like as part of my practical work, there has been a very strong element of storytelling, and, and of changing the stories and worldview so they go together, right?
The, the, the, the practical and the, um, and the worldview. And, and this was really a, a, a core message in, in the book that I published, um, wow. Now like 4, 3, 4 years ago. Um, which was, um, looking at gardens as these very practical applied places and practices, and also seeing what were the embedded [00:32:00] worldviews.
In in them. You talk about
Andrea Hiott: values in that book, and I think you sort of divided up, is it Wonder design habitat, something like that. Because all these elements that you've been describing are definitely in that book as a complex system, even the art. Mm-hmm. And, I guess that was on purpose to, to incorporate all of that because there's also these stunning pictures of gardens, and very different kinds of gardens from rock garden.
There's, you know, there's a lot of, uh, the complex system theme is is there at many layers. So was that a kind of conscious choice that you wanted to do a book like that?
Félix de Rosen: Absolutely. Well, I mean, you know, the goal was really how do we stop thinking of the garden as this little piece of nature that, exists in our front yard or our backyard, and instead.
Think of it as a way of being that is in fact everywhere, regardless of where we look. So, you know, the, the [00:33:00] garden as this kind of white picket fence in the front and backyard in many ways is the problem.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. It's like the lawn or something. These things we just assume are categories that exist that we don't change and Yeah.
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. And, and so there's, you know, and there's some very strong political reasons for why that is the image that we have of the garden. um, there's this one, one, uh, a thinker that I really like. Vanessa Andretti, uh, has this, yeah, this exercise, you know, where she asks people, um, um, draw me corn, draw me a, a piece of corn and everyone draws a, a yellow corn with like these green stalks.
Whereas in reality, most of the corn in the world, you know, is, uh, like traditional corn is not yellow. It's multicolored, it's it's blue, it's green, it's white, it's red. Um, and so we have I think a very, uh, normative, [00:34:00] uh, culturally conditioned understanding of what gardens are and, and, and nature are. And, and the book was really an attempt to be to, to, uh, really kind of, um, ignite some, some other ways of thinking specifically, um, um, around, um, you know, to non-Western ways of, of appreciating, um, um, gardens and nature looking at indigenous cultures, but also, um.
Looking at artists, at artists and how they have been thinking about, uh, like using materials in, in, in interesting ways. Um, and also, you know, looking at places that we, that are not in the, um, the core, uh, center of, of, conventional discussions. You know, in the book, I I look at, um, some of the gardens built by [00:35:00] homeless people in, uh, in Oakland.
Um, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. It's in a way what you're sort of describing is a cognitive shift and it also seems to relate, I don't know, to the one that you were going through when you wanted to go back to school and you were thinking about nature beauty people. Did, did you develop a different way of seeing the.
It almost feels like you took a step back and understood, saw the world differently, or saw your inner relations in a different way. Was that around the same time you started to think about complex systems or had that already been part of your life? I guess I'm just wondering if that was going in parallel that you were also beginning to see your place and what community meant to you in a different way at the same time that you were also literally starting sort of a new career that you would present, such as in that book, in that sort of complex view, you know, that vision?
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. [00:36:00] I,
I'm not sure how to answer that. Uh, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll try. Um, I think that I was really trying. To find my place, uh, in this, in this world and in specifically in the, in the professional, uh, like in the professional world, like where, you know, I was at recently outta school. It's like, I, I need to work.
Um, what do I do? Um, how do I, um, how do I, um, leverage these design skills? Um, this practical understanding of the world with also the fact that it's very frustrating to work on a site when you know that the entire system around the site, you cannot do anything about it. And, and ultimately it's the system that's impacting the, the site.
So, you know, if you're, you know, if you're a landscape [00:37:00] architect, you generally, not always, but you know, you're give, you're given very clear site boundaries, and. For me, that was just incredibly frustrating because I, I, I didn't want to just make one little place pretty, I, at the, at i I, because that's, that's also, you know, the, the danger of of, of, um, a discipline like landscape architecture is that a lot of resources, a lot of energy are put into making one place look really nice.
But then there's this whole shadow side where the, the, what allows that is, you know, extraction and, and, and outside of the site. And so, um, I, um, I started just, I think taking myself a bit more seriously and understanding that I did have, um, um, a desire to, to think in systems. It just took me a long time to find the right people and [00:38:00] communities to, um, people in communities that really could welcome that type of perspective.
Andrea Hiott: it seems like something we really need right now is to be able to find a way into those kinds of communities. I mean, as I hear you talk, you know, you were holding a lot of different things, so different cultures from your childhood and all these other things.
You had the sickness, you had, obviously you were kind of excelling if you were doing so well. Academics, but at the same time, you seem to have still felt some alienation. So I think a lot of these things are themes that people feel right now. Uh, maybe we always feel, but especially right now. And, and as you found in your life, the answer does come when you can find community where you can explore these things together and in a authentic way.
in a way I would maybe even bring up love a bit here because in a way where you can help each other hold all of those things. And I think a lot of us have found ways to do this through complex systems [00:39:00] thinking and through nature and, you know, you're bringing those together. So We're at a moment now where we need these kind of skills. Do you see how this journey that you've been on, have you, have you maybe even in spite of yourself, learned a practice, that you now might now see as very important? is it helpful in these times? Of course. I know it's an ongoing process, but does that make any sense?
Félix de Rosen: I is, is a, is a particular practice helpful or, um, the practice of political science, uh,
Andrea Hiott: being able to see the world through the lens of the complex system and being able to understand the interrelation of what you are thinking about and orienting towards and nature and community.
Félix de Rosen: Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, I, I, you know, I, I don't.
I think it's absolutely critical to, to have a systems understanding of, of, of the world. Yes. That doesn't mean that I, that everyone should do that. I think it's a very helpful tool, but, you know, [00:40:00] not everyone, there's also nothing wrong with just, you know, being, um, a, a gardener or having a, a, a more, uh, I, I, I really believe that, you know, it's not about the what, it's more about the how that, that we're doing.
Right. A lot of times people ask like, well, what can I do to make the world a better place? And it's just like, well, you know, what can you not do? It's, it's like you have, you have a capacity to impact, um, within what you're already doing. whether that's being in an office or being an artist, or being in government, I think what systems thinking brings that is particularly purely helpful.
Is, a real, it's, it's a certain realism. Um, our, our, our challenges as a co, as a civilization right now are actually, you know, very, very complex. Um, and, systems thinking allows us [00:41:00] to recognize that complexity so that we're not naive, about the, about our responses. Um, systems thinking also allows us to hold contradiction, um, because, um,
it allows us to, to, to hold contra contradiction and to not have simple stories that we use as psychological crutches. that in fact don't lead to, uh, an honest relationship with, with reality. And, and so, I, like, I'm a, I'm a really big advocate in what Donna Haraway calls Staying With the Trouble.
which is essentially another way of saying that, you know, we have to learn how to be with uncertainty, with difficulty, um, with, uh, with, with challenges. And we have to learn through, you know, we have to learn to love them. Uh, and a large part of the problem of, uh, of, of the world [00:42:00] today is that we, we, first of all, I think that we think of solutions.
We think the world has to be solved. And, um, I don't think that's a helpful framework. I think the world has to be tended to, but there's a certain violence to actually wanting to solve, um, very complex problems. Um, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, I guess that's what I was trying to get at a bit too, because yes, not everyone needs to be calling themselves a systems thinker or studying complex systems or whatever.
These are just words we put on, uh, a lot of ongoing actions. But I think a gardener is already working with what we're calling complex systems. I mean, that's so many layers of living ongoing life. They probably understand it better than people who've just studied complex systems. Uh, so it might even be, it's another, it's another path into being able to hold mm-hmm.
Félix de Rosen: The
Andrea Hiott: paradox or hold these contradictions, which seems to be a theme in a [00:43:00] lot of people's lives right now that's helping them, like to be able to take that step back and be able to hold what seem impossible or seem irreconcilable, I guess, is bio regionalism. How, how do I connect it to that, to this, to that idea of, because, you know, right now it, it does seem.
Hard to hold all of this. We might have, on the one hand, tariffs, you know, like blocking out all of this ongoing interconnected stuff. And, and at the same time we do have this push to be in our region and connected to the place where we are. And there, there, there, there can just be a lot of messages of that we're trying to hold.
That can seem contradictory. And I wonder in your work with Bio regionalism and with Polyculture, if you've seen this, all these differences that you're having to hold, if you've found new ways of holding them, especially these very extreme dichotomies, for example, in the United States of, uh, left and right or us and them in whatever [00:44:00] way, one might, might put it.
Félix de Rosen: Um, well I think that, I'm gonna try, I'm gonna do my best to answer that question 'cause it's, there's a lot there. One way of thinking about bio regionalism is really as a social process, of bringing, uh, the inhabitants, the citizens of a landscape, of a bioregion, of a territory, of a watershed, bringing them together and asking how do we build a common vision for this place? Um, to ask that question is not just a playful exercise, although it should be a playful exercise, it's, it's, it's deeply existential.
Not asking that question, um, means relying on, um, you know, systems that are destroying the planet and us [00:45:00] along with it. so in that social process, we confront all the messiness and contradictions of human beings. Um, you, we, we confront business interests that have a certain set of incentives with, um, the interests of government and municipal authorities, which confronts with the interests of, you know, uh, homeowners, um, families, um, artists, scientists, academics, white collar workers, blue collar workers, like, um, there's, there's a lot there.
And they need to, they need in a way to develop a, a coherent vision. And, um, I. A lot of the work that that needs to be done in, in, in, in the, the process of bio regioning is [00:46:00] really creating a participatory process where people feel invited to, um, to engage with a messy situation. Um, and that's a, like no one want, like few people want to do that, right?
Um, because we, we've been sold a model of politics where the way that we make that we have agencies by voting once every four or five years. That's absurd when you think about it. It's, it's a delegation of our responsibility, um, instead of a, um, an uh, an assumption of agency. Um, and so I consider bio regioning, bio regionalism as, um.
A way to rekindle the fire of agency, um, to rekindle the, uh, the desire to [00:47:00] work with messy, complex systems that have been getting messier and more complex because they are not in our hands. Um, which is why people go hungry in the US now when a supermarket relying on global supply chains, um, um, doesn't have chicken and eggs in stock because of some, um, you know, influenza happening on the other side of the world.
We're incredibly fragile. It's such a fragile system, and, and we don't really realize it because we're, we're putting so much resources into upkeeping it. Um, and so we really need to like. We really need to wake up to that. The problem is, is that everything, all the signs, all the cues right now are, are to just, you know, keep on going.
Um, I hope that sort of gets at what you're asking. [00:48:00]
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, it does. And I, I just also was hoping to get at, I don't know what question to ask exactly, but the left, right, up down kind of perspective shift that you've had.
So in your work with bio regionalism and these other things we've been talking about, how have you found, what ways have you found to actually bring people together towards regenerative actions that can actually make a difference to some of these problems?
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. Um, well, I think the most helpful way is to focus and believe in a
shared set of human desires and wants that are more powerful than our differences. And I know it sounds a little cliche, but I do think it's really true that if you look at, uh, the political spectrum, the, you know, the, the left right distinction. Um, that [00:49:00] model seems increasingly out of date. Um, and for example, you know, progress, the, you know, the, the, the political and cultural left usually believes in social welfare, community wellbeing, um, uh, progress, um, ecology, um, uh, and a state to really, um, a state to that, to support that.
Whereas the right, you know, believes usually in, um, a more, um, more traditional set of values. More, um, um, uh, less, uh, more of a rural focus. And so, you know, there are, if you look at this, these distinctions, there actually are some very strong, um, common points that actually bio regionalism gets, uh, to the heart of, um, bio regionalism, for example, you know, um, [00:50:00] really calls for a re localization of, uh, of our economies and our governance systems so that it's the people in a place that, uh, start to really, um, make decisions about what's beneficial for, for them in, in that place.
Um, this is where left and right actually find incredible synergies, um, where the desire for progress and ecological stewardship meet of the left, meet the, uh, the desire for local identity, for tradition of, of the right where, um. Where the, the left's desire for sustainability meets the right's desire for, um, uh, re localization.
Um, uh, I'm, I'm, um, and, and so instead of left and right, it's much more helpful to think about, um, um, bottom and up, um, uh, bottom [00:51:00] being me and up being we. Um, and when you think about it that way, there are people on the right who want we just as much as people on, on, on the left. Um, there's nuance to that of course, but I think this model is, is, is helpful.
Um, and one of the really exciting projects I'm working on right now is to take, um, the principles of, uh, bio regionalism, um, as articulated through the organization that I work with, the BioFire project to. Literally rewrite that language into, um, a way into the language of conservative America, um, so that we can start publishing materials that, um, can bring, um, you know, conservatives into, into alliance with us.
Um, because we're no, like the, you know, the enemy is no longer them. Like we're not, we're not [00:52:00] enemies If there's, you know, I don't like the word enemy, but if there's an enemy now, it's, it's really, you know, oligarchy and, and, uh, and, and so there's, there's inevitably gonna be, and, and, and this applies for Europe as well, and across the world, there's gonna be increasing amounts of dissatisfaction on people who formerly identified as being on the right with the way that politics are going.
And, and there's s. Really a, a lot of really interesting efforts in initiatives happening, happening all across the world, and particularly in the us um, around post partisan politics, which is really what Bio Regionalism is about. It's like, okay, let's get over the tragedy and let's, you know, let's, uh, and, and, and, and let's start working together because we don't have a choice anymore.
Andrea Hiott: That's beautiful. Do you, do you, in your work, have you seen that this can also go across typical [00:53:00] national lines? That these communities can find each other internationally rather than only Yeah,
Félix de Rosen: absolutely. I mean, uh, some of the, the, the Bioregional projects that. My organization works with, uh, our international, um, the work across, um, international Alliance.
Just to give you two examples. One is called the, um, Amazon Sacred Headwaters, um, Alliance. And that's a, an alliance of, um, many, many, uh, indigenous tribes that are across the borders between Peru and Ecuador. Um, and then another one is the Cascadia by a region which stretches from California to Canada all the way to, um, Alaska.
So, um, people are working across, um, across national boundaries
Andrea Hiott: that really does feel like the future not thinking left, right, or even this country, that country, but more in these layers of what you described as up and down. But as we're all nested together in a [00:54:00] way.
Félix de Rosen: Uh, and, and I, and I, and I would add also it's not about like replacing government, uh, like the existing institutions of government, it's more about, um.
Adding, uh, another layer that can hopefully work. You know, we have to trans, we have to be in relationship with, with, with government. So we're not creating a totally parallel system. Um, so we have, we have to work with, um, with, we, we do work with different types of, of municipal authorities and, and different types of, um, official government institutions.
Andrea Hiott: I imagine your training and design helps you there because you learn how to work with what already is to reorient it in certain ways. last question, 'cause I know you need to go. It's, I have to bring up the word love and I wonder if that's too hard to bring into this conversation of bio regionalism or if, if you see a connection to where, to your own motivation or to the motivation you see around [00:55:00] you
Félix de Rosen: Yeah, no, I mean, I, I can, we could have a whole conversation just about that. Um, um, I, I, I deeply believe that we, human beings are, um, you know, we are creatures and animals of the earth. Um, and
what do I mean by that? Um, I mean that we have for millions of years evolved in proximity to, to, to living landscapes. Um, we, our, you know, our, our, our, our organs, our minds, our bodies are all shaped in relationship to, to gravity, to, um, to, to flora and fauna, to, to shifting weather patterns. so our relationship with the earth.
and are, you can't really, I, I think if you take a human being and you put them in [00:56:00] an urban concrete jungle, it um, there is something missing there. Um, so I think there's a role for cities. Bio regionalism is not just a rural process. It's actually, it's, it's about integrating rurality and, and, and urban life.
but a human being that is I think divorced from, other forms of life more than human forms of life, I think is fundamentally, um, alienated. And so love is really our rec in this context. Love is. our rec recognition of our deep, deep, interdependence with, with the, with the earth. that, you know, you, you, it is, I, I used, i it, the earth is, is our mother.
You know, it is, it is where we come from and, um, we have [00:57:00] long lived thinking that we can just, take and, and, and, and in a way live on its surface. But we are not on the surface of the earth. We are in the earth. Right. Um, and, and, and, you know, the earth also extends, you know, the, the atmosphere extends, I don't know how far up, but extends pretty far up and we are.
We, we are, we are really in it. And I think, bio regionalism is largely, it's beyond being like a social and political and ecological philosophy. It's also a recognition that, um, I, that we come from place and we go back to place. Um, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: That's beautiful. And we always are that place too. It's strange.
Alienation is such a difficult thing that we've all felt in different ways, and it's even more tragic because it's just that we haven't [00:58:00] understood that connection or being able to relax into it or trust it or something like that. Um, does that make sense?
Félix de Rosen: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And I would say, you know, I, I, I don't, I'm very careful about not fetishizing or romanticizing indigenous cultures.
Um, but anyone who has spent time with significant time with indigenous cultures realizes that, you know, that I'm, I'm generalizing here that they have a much longer relationship with Mother Earth than, than we do. we, and I say we, I'm, I'm talking about, um, myself and, and people from kind of the, the, the, the urban, um, west industrial civilization. Um, we are only a few generations removed from that. Um, so it's, it's actually very much alive in [00:59:00] us if we, it's, it's evolutionarily programmed in us, so it's, it, it comes back.
I think very quickly and bio regionalism in this sense, you know, is nothing new. We have been bio regioning since we've been human beings in, in the sense that we have been learning how to be in place. It has just come up as a term recently starting in the seventies, but now with kind of a renewed emphasis because of, of the poly crisis and, and the times we're living in, it has come up with renewed emphasis, um, because we realize that we need to, uh, that, that we are indigenous to this planet, and so we need to find and create ways of recreating social, economic, political systems in line with that.
Andrea Hiott: That just reminds me of the way we started with getting in the b getting out of one box and into the other box in the car, and how that's a, from what you just described with the indigenous kind of way of being in the world, um, [01:00:00] that's still part of us. Maybe this is some way that we can. Understand that those kind of systems actually do have a direct effect on how, you know, what's possible for us, how we feel, what we want, and how we build the future, I guess,
Félix de Rosen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I really like, there's a, a term that's been helpful that a friend of mine introduced me to, which is a DD, which stands for Agency Deficit Disorder.
and it's a way of speaking about how one of the biggest struggles we have today is, is in the lack of a sense of agency. And, uh, we have many, we have, we we need to create. support systems for each other. We need to signal to each other that we can work together and we need to do so at scale. I think, um, [01:01:00] that type of signaling, the stories we share, um, are, and, and, and, and, and the, the kind of, the aesthetics also of how we share that are, really, uh, an important thing to pay attention to today.
Andrea Hiott: Does that give you hope when you see that?
Félix de Rosen: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm, I, I think, uh, I think we know we have all the resources and all the capacity to change things. We just need to actually believe that we can.
Andrea Hiott: Wonderful. Well, you and your colleagues are showing ways we can do it.
So how do we connect with you? How do people find out more?
Félix de Rosen: I am. So my, the organization I work with is called the Bio Ffi Project, so there's our website, yeah. Bio do Earth, and, um, that's, that's, that's the main way. Yeah. I have my own personal art artistic design website, which is poly cultura.com.
that is, uh, interesting and fun to explore as well.
Andrea Hiott: Well, it's been wonderful to talk to you and I really appreciate everything you've said today. I think you [01:02:00] made some really resonant points there that will be helpful. So thank you and thanks for the work you do, and good luck.
Félix de Rosen: Thank you, Andrea. I feel like we could keep on talking for, uh, a long time and I hope this is, uh, not the last conversation.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, I think we were just getting warmed up to be honest. But yeah, that's the time we had for today, but let's, let's just hit pause for now and come back another time. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Okay. I really appreciate it. Thank you,
Félix de Rosen: Andrea. All right. Be well. Bye-bye. Bye