Wild Thinking with Jessica Böhme
Jessica Böhme is a sustainability scientist, transformation researcher, and founder of the Institute for Practical Eco Philosophy. Jessica shares her journey of exploring the connection between inner transformation and outer change, and how this quest has influenced her personal and professional life. Andrea and Jessica delve into the concept of living philosophically, the role of relational philosophies, and how they impact sustainability. They also discuss the challenges Jessica faced in academia, the significance of personal practices, and her innovative idea of 'philosophy gyms' aimed at integrating philosophy into everyday life for better ecological and business practices in the engineering world. Jessica also talks about her unique lifestyle choices, her artwork, and the broader implications of living a thoughtful, engaged life.
00:00 Introduction to Inner and Outer Change
00:29 Philosophy as a Way of Life
01:59 Welcome to Love and Philosophy
02:04 Introducing Jessica Böhme
02:37 Exploring Relational Philosophy
03:28 Philosophy Gyms and Ecological Love
04:21 The Knowledge-Action Gap
06:50 Jessica's Academic Journey
09:42 Inner Transformation and Sustainability
10:01 Mechanistic vs. Relational Worldview
12:34 Challenges in Sustainability Science
13:39 The Complexity of Relational Thinking
32:05 Philosophy as a Living Process
37:13 The Paradox of Science and Health
38:13 Personal and Planetary Health
39:43 Patterns in Health and Consumption
40:47 The Role of Awareness and Choice
42:28 Practical Eco Philosophy
44:04 Micro Habits and Daily Practices
48:34 Living Philosophically
59:44 The Concept of Wild
01:01:04 Art and Expression
01:04:51 Philosophy Gyms and Experiments
01:08:59 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Institute for Practical ekoPhilosophy
Pierre Hadot: Philosophy as a Way of Life
TRANSCRIPT:
Jessica Böhme on Love and Philosophy
Jessica Böhme: [00:00:00] I often talk about eco philosophy because any philosophy, like one thing that I want to, at least what I have for myself as a, the goal is to always see it in this ecological context, which has planetary boundaries, which has real physical reality.
I want to find my philosophy, and this was one of the main drivers for a long time in my life, without me even knowing, like I wanted to find, okay, what, what's the philosophy I can live by? What are the principle of values that I, that I really want to see in my everyday life?
Jessica Böhme: and then eventually I noticed, but this having a philosophy, I've been searching for the philosophy now for the last 10 years, and I still haven't found it.
And it's almost like at one point I'm like, should I give up hope that eventually I'm going to find it. But then I noticed, well, I. No, it's so much more about this process of finding it is actually living philosophically and that's the beauty of it.
And then I kind of noticed for the first time where philosophy is called love of wisdom.
So, but it's a love of [00:01:00] it and not having it possessing it and, and. The same for me became apparent with philosophy. Like it's not something I have, but it's really something I, on the one hand that I do, but also something that has sort of a life of its own. Because I, as much as I have agency and as much as I can, determine certain parts of that philosophy at the same time, it's always influenced by so many people, and it's always changing, adapting to my circumstances.
So I, I will never be able to hold it, and as soon as I try to do that, I feel like it's already slipping away again.
Andrea Hiott: Hello everyone. Welcome to Love and Philosophy. Today's guest is Jessica Böhme. A sustainability scientist, a transformation researcher. She is the founder and director of the Institute for Practical Echo Philosophy, and she's a professor and academic director in technology management in Berlin.
She also writes about philosophy and sustainability in her blog, She's following this tradition of philosophy as a way of life that you might have heard of from Pierre Hadot, which [00:02:00] is also very connected to the stoic ideas and to Marcus Aurelius it's not the things that trouble us, but our judgment about things.
I. I think that's eit. It's definitely something Pierre Haddo brings up a lot in his work. That's one thread of this. Another thread would be the relational philosophy. The ideas of individuals as being entangled in their very essence, entangled together in our existence as our existence.
Karen Barad writes about this a lot, about how to be entangled, is to be, intertwined with each other, but also. part of one another. We aren't individuals in the sense of existing alone, but tangled up together. So Jess is looking at these kinds of ideas. Those are some inspirations that we talk about here in this conversation, she's trying to talk about them in a way that will be understandable and applicable no matter.
Where you are, what, what's going on in your life? taking some of these academic notions and translating them, however you wanna say it, into other ways of expression. But it's also just that she's having an [00:03:00] exploration herself and that she's sharing it with us through her writings and through her work.
doing things called philosophy gyms, for example. So that's a European funded research program where different businesses, small to medium, actually take part in these philosophy gyms. I think of her work as trying to bring ecological love and philosophical thinking. Into everyday life and from an engineering mindset and a business mindset, and that's a big hard project. And so I just wanna support her and introduce you to her and I hope you'll find her work. I'm sure you'll enjoy reading her blog posts.
We, in this conversation, talk about how she got to where she is and what she's really trying to do, what it means to her. We talk about this knowledge, action gap and value action gap. where we, and we know what's good for us or we know what we should be doing and or we know what would lead to a better world and yet we don't quite do it.
We can't quite get motivated. Some of that is the disconnect that It is hard to figure out how to share and be successful, for example, without selling out or being inauthentic. And in [00:04:00] her work, she wrestles with this a bit.
She might have a title like This article Will Save Your Life, which is something a lot of people will click on. But then she notes that, you know, you probably clicked on this because of that title. What is this about? And she explores that. We also talk about wildness. her substack is called. Wild philosophy, and I think this wildness speaks to the entanglement and the relationality and how because we're so enmeshed and entangled with one another, we can never quite see the full picture.
And that's a wildness, but also how philosophy is a way of life, or just critical thinking. The practice of philosophy helps us to notice that movement in its patterns in different ways. And this is so helpful for. Structure for scaffolding, for connection, for all the things that we need alongside that wildness.
So wild philosophy and Jess's work, I think is exploring a lot of this and of course much more. And we talk about that here. There might be a little interruption from a dog. The office, uh, was someone [00:05:00] was ringing the doorbell, and so I'm sorry about that. If you're watching it as a video, you'll get to see the dogs at the end if you're a dog lover.
I hope you're doing well out there in the world, wherever you may be. I just wanna send you some support and some love, and I hope you find some. Words or videos or music or a tree, whatever you might need today that gives you a little energy, a little positivity, a little love in whatever way you might need it.
Don't be afraid of it. Love matters. We're making it and it's not easy, so let's try and help each other do it. Okay? Alright, here we go.
Okay. Hi Jessica. Welcome to Love and Philosophy. I'm so glad you're here today. It's wonderful to meet you. Thank you. Very nice to meet you as well. So I kind of wish I was in Berlin and we could do this on a walk.
I was thinking. Yeah, that'd be lovely. Yeah, it's actually both big walkers, I think. Yeah. [00:06:00]
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. It's one of my favorite activities actually, like walking and talking. it is just the best concept for me.
Andrea Hiott: Me too. but for those who don't know you, you have quite a. Wide background.
you seem to have some engineering. Mm-hmm. You certainly have philosophy, you have the ecological. how can we introduce you here in a way that's gonna do justice to all those parts of you?
Jessica Böhme: yeah, my, my background is in mechanical engineering and I've worked in that field also a little bit after I finished my, my studies and, um, after a short time, I felt a bit. And started studying again, sustainability and quality management, which was very business focused.
Um, but one thing that I did there was I, I looked at like, what can I possibly contribute? And the first thing I looked at were technologies. Because, you know, with my background, it was kind of a given. And then I, I started going into like, uh, renewable energies and water technologies, and I saw like, there's already [00:07:00] so much out there, but why has it not been implemented on scale?
Like, like what's underneath it? And that kind of got me into questioning like, okay, if all these solutions are there, why is it not happening? Um, and then at the same time, I started in my own life to, um. To really try to live according to a sustainable standard, which was, you know, reducing my carbon footprint immensely, which was, uh, impossible, I would almost say to do.
Um, but I, I really tried to see where my own life, am I not, you know, acting ecologically or also, um, am my social, like am my relations, where am I not showing up in a way that I think the world needs us to show up? Um, and that really like became this question of how do I live my life? And that became so much of a driver in regards to.
The, um, the challenges that I saw, they seemed to be not on a technological level and not on a political level, but just [00:08:00] people kind of pointing fingers at each other the whole time. Like the politicians would say, io, it's, uh, it's a companies, the companies would say it's good, the consumers, and then the consumers would say, well, we need to change politics.
And then, you know, it just go around and round and nothing was really changing. So I was really looking at like, okay, what can I contribute to that and how am I in, in involved in the whole system? Um, and that since then has been basically where my question of like, how do I live my life? Which really got me into, um, thinking and a lot about complex systems.
Um, and eventually got me into philosophy, uh, which I have no form of background in actually. Um, you know, my, my PhD was very, very focused on a very, very philosophical, um, but, um, yeah, so I, I tried to bring together these, um, um.
Andrea Hiott: can I ask?
can I ask what was your PhD about? Mm-hmm. Because it was very philosophical, but yeah, it was philosophy. So yeah,
Jessica Böhme: so, [00:09:00] so, it was in sustainability science and the, what I was looking at was basically the way that I framed it was about inner transformation and sustainability, or inner and outer transformation and how we do these two relate.
And I really wanted to see like, how does our inner contribute to outer change? And is there a connection? Um, and eventually I noticed like, okay, one of these changes that we need to make is to switch from a really mechanistic way of understanding the world to a really relational way of understanding the world.
But once we do that, then actually this idea of the inner can solve the outer kind of dissolves, but the inner outer are really, you know, basically. Two sides of the same coin. They're so closely related that it's hard to actually make that distinction. Which, um, yeah. Which then got me into questioning, okay, what is this relational worldview and, and which different disciplines have been, um, already engaging with it?
And I saw how many different fields are already Yeah. A part of that actually. Mm-hmm. Um, so I looked at that and then I tried to [00:10:00] develop, uh, transformative educational processes in order to teach people, like how do they get from mechanistic to relational? And then afterwards I was like, oh my God, what have I done?
Like, this is such a mechanistic approach, getting from cost to effect.
Andrea Hiott: That's wonderful that you bring it up like that because you know this, A lot of my project is trying to understand dichotomy and what does it mean to move beyond dichotomy. Mm-hmm. Or holding paradox, which I've, I've found that it's not about solving that.
You know, you talk about solutions a lot too, and it's not about the solution, but I, I do think there's, at, at first it sounds like you had it too. We feel like we have these two things that are contradictory and we need to resolve them. Yeah. But we need to decide between them somehow. Yeah. You know that if you're, if you're doing something that you've called inner transformation, then it must be different from whatever the outer transformation is.
You, it starts to feel like a trap, a bit in, a lot of different, in, in science, in philosophy, in our everyday life to try to. Make one [00:11:00] into the other or choose between them. Does that speak, did you feel that tension a bit when you were
Jessica Böhme: Yeah, absolutely. And it, it took me quite some time to, to figure that out.
Like when I started, you know, first it started about like learning about what relational philosophy or what relational approaches even are and the relational world of approaching the world. And the, the three spheres that I looked at right from the beginning were about our ways of knowing, being and doing.
Or Karen Bared talks about it as an ethical entrepr epistemology. These three spheres are always, uh, interrelated. So I knew, okay, I don't just have to change what I know, but I also have to change, like the way I approach it, the way I, I act it out and that this is all involved into, into researching that as well.
Um, but I wasn't quite. Sure. Like how do I bring myself in in that way? And especially in, um, in regards to doing research, you know, like the, a relational lens to research is still something that's very [00:12:00] much in the margins, especially in, in topics, uh, like sustainability science or transformation research where I'm more or less situated.
Um, so developing or, or actually needs the developing of methods first in order to, to figure out how that works. And I've really wrapped my head around it so much and, and I still am. And to some degree of like. Question of how do we make the immeasurable measurable, even though, you know, in a way I don't want to make it measurable and, you know, everything's related, but we also can take it all into account.
So finding this, um, this critical, um, distinction between where does it become meaningless because we are taking too much into account and how do we, you know, analyze, take apart, focus on, on one part of it that's maybe interesting, but at the same time, don't lose the view for the whole
Andrea Hiott: Mm. Yeah, exactly. I think that's where complex systems can help a bit too.
And starting to think, and what I imagine is multiplicities, which can be hard and [00:13:00] it can be too overwhelming, but I wonder when, when you started getting into the relational mm-hmm. Thing. And because you're coming at it from a different way. For me, and even though when I read your work, I really resonate a lot.
And it's very But it's very interesting to me to try to understand how you came into it. So transformation, that's a big word. And yeah, that research. And what, what kind of philosophy were you reading or what did you first start to, I know you've referenced Whitehead, for example, and other process philosophy, but Do you remember when you started having kind of,
Jessica Böhme: I, I think my entry point was actually you rather through indigenous philosophies and Oh wow. Great. Uh. That was the first time I came. Yeah. It, it really made sense to me. I, I would say, oh, I started that still sometimes doesn't make sense to, at least it started to make sense to me to some point.
Um, and then it was very, very diverse and it's hard to, to pin down. Um, another one, or, or who was greatly influenced my thinking was [00:14:00] Karen Bared. Um, and trying to really understand what she means took me quite, quite some time and quite of different books as well. Were also, especially when I, when I try to translate that into how do I now do my research based on that, you know, trying to understand what she's actually saying.
Mm-hmm. And I think there is a, a big distinction, at least I see that in sustainability science. Um, it's easy to talk about these relational philosophies or not easy, but there's, there's a way of talking about that. But then to actually translate that. Into our research and then how we approach knowledge.
This really kind of flips around our way of, of approaching the world. And I think that makes it so difficult. And I still notice myself, like when I talk to people and uh, when we, when we write, for example, academic papers, you know, we're constantly pointing out each other well, but here you're falling into the trap of approaching it mechanistically.
Um, and it's really hard to get out of that, that lens, I feel.
Andrea Hiott: Uh, yeah, me too. And so [00:15:00] some of it is just being aware of that you're doing it, not necessarily not doing it. Yeah. Or, or even saying this is, I'm coming at it from this angle because then you understand that it's not everything, you know. Yeah.
Yeah. That seems like what you do in your work too, a bit with the way that you talk about these very different, I mean, you, you bring up spirituality, you bring up the physical, the mental, the emotional. I feel like you're trying to show that kaleidoscope or that. Complexity. Yeah,
Jessica Böhme: I mean, I, I sometimes think like you, as mentioned in the beginning, like the, the diversity of the background.
And I think like one thing where this comes in handy almost is that, you know, my, my studies, my first studies, it was very practical. So I, I learned more about like, how do I, how do I build an engine then, you know, what does academic work? So, um, it was very, very practice oriented, so I didn't have so much the idea of these different disciplines.
And I had this huge struggle when I started out at my [00:16:00] PhD that the topic that I wanted to do, I couldn't find a, um, a PhD supervisor. Um, and I, I started with various professors and they were like, well, uh, I can help you with this, but this is actually. No, this is not working. And then I, you and them actually start working together, or they said, I don't wanna work with you anymore.
Um, and so it's, and it was the same
Andrea Hiott: topic, transformation. Yes. Yes. It was
Jessica Böhme: about inner transformation and sustainability. And then, and then in my PhD proposals, I was always, you know, take it quite, quite big and have quite a big mm-hmm. Uh, approach, which was, um, alienating and not necessarily typical in academia, especially in Germany where it's like academia I feel is especially siloed and it's sometimes, uh, you know, people are very hesitant about like, unusual topics.
So, and, and now in sustainability science, the whole topic around inner transformation has become more established. but back when I started it wasn't yet. So, so it took quite some time. And I think the, the benefit that I sort of had was that I don't have this strict [00:17:00] academic, uh, discipline that I wanted to follow.
And that kind of got me into just exploring what, wherever my interest took me without, you know, having that. Glasses on beforehand, and it actually only later me like, ah, okay, okay. This is how, how you divide disciplines and this is what it really means. And uh, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. It's always going back and forth.
some people want to, when we talk about interdisciplinarity, trying to make it where the boundaries aren't so, apparent. Yeah. But then it sounds like you kind of came at it from the other way of Oh, okay. I can kind of see the differences because Yeah. I guess what a lot of us are trying to solve the same problems and even using sometimes the same text, but coming at it from different traditions, we can even Yeah.
Talk over, talk about the same things, but mean different things sometimes without Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you think, when you were trying to talk about inner transformation, was that difficult for professors because I. This is love and philosophy and I, I, yeah. I'm talking to [00:18:00] scientists, neuroscientist people, and this, this word is very hard sometimes.
I mean, for me too, thinking about it. Yeah. You know, and also that line, which you talk about in your writing a bit too, of, of the simplification versus the mm-hmm. Recognition of the complexity or this becoming about something like self-help, you know? Yeah. Which, and, and the way that maybe professors might look down on that.
I don't know. Have you, did you feel any of that? Yeah, absolutely.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah, very strongly. It's, it's opened up a little bit, I feel. Um, but especially when I, when I started out, um, I was lucky to find a, a research group, which also just started out exploring these topics with the quiet established research institute here in Germany.
And they were also just two people who had liberty to kind of explore this topic. So one of our first, uh, goals was to sort of establish that as an actual. A topic to be discussed and to, to, to start building a community around people who are already in their private lives, you know, are concerned with that [00:19:00] on a very high level, um, but don't really bring it into their professional fields, like, especially sustainability scientists who often, you know, sustainability I think is a good topic because a lot of people come to it actually through love and through caring about the world on such a deep level.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so in the beginning it was really just get, trying to get the people together who were, you know, somehow in their, in their closet talking about it. And, and now I see how it's coming up in conferences. Um, there was now a, a conference in the, in the uk, which is accompanied by a, a pre-event where one of the main professors is doing like a shamanic journey for people beforehand to connect that to sustainability.
So it's, I I really see a, a, a big shift there. Um, but yeah, in the beginning it was quite difficult and I still find that sometimes.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. Well, that's good to hear that it's changing. Hopefully it continues and I mean, it's always a balance, right? Yeah. Do you ever find you can go too far into Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And [00:20:00]
Jessica Böhme: I, I, I have this, uh, oh, there's this one guy, he's in wedding on Substack, um, I think his name's Tom Morgan, and he has a, a scale at the beginning he talks about the V factor. Yeah, yeah. Right. I love that, uh, to bring that kind of as a warning and to show like, okay, we are self-aware that these things might be a bit, uh, ambiguous for some people, but there is so much, so much to them.
Um
Andrea Hiott: mm-hmm.
Jessica Böhme: And yeah. But still, when I, when I talk to people sort of outside my bubble, I see how that can be alienating or sometimes I have that with students. So most of my students are also coming from a background in engineering who are, a lot of them are coming from India, doing an MBA. In Germany to work, you know, for Tesla, the big car companies.
And so I try to bring these perspectives in and it's, yeah, it's taking some finesse maybe is the right word, to bring these topics to them. Sometimes, sometimes for some it's just like quick, but for some it's difficult, I think. What's the [00:21:00] kind of class that you would teach where you would talk about that?
Would it be? Mm-hmm. Um, well, the, it's a, a classic MBA program, you could say with, with a focus on different technologies. One of them is environmental and energy management, and they do have a basic class in sustainability or corporate sustainability, corporate social responsibility, and global management.
So I, I bring these aspects in. Into those sustainability management classes where I try to, you know, explain the global context first through explaining the meta crisis and then, uh, bringing that down. It's great that you're doing that.
Andrea Hiott: I think that reminded me somebody was were they laughing at you because you used the term planetary health or, yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Does that happen often?
Jessica Böhme: Um, not so much. Uh, so that was quite unusual. Yes. Okay. Uh, and that was actually why there was, was peers, uh, you know, who were to whom this was so alienating, um, as they're coming not in, out, out of this bubble, but from a very different discipline. [00:22:00] So, uh, yeah, they found that funny.
The students are fortunately a bit more, uh, generous.
Andrea Hiott: Do you think that it was funny because thinking of the planet as living was funny or, because sometimes we laugh just 'cause we're uncomfortable or we're caught off guard or whatever.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. Um,
Andrea Hiott: but planetary health now sounds, it, it's funny how you get conditioned and you just, that, that sounds like a normal phrase.
Yeah. But then I do remember a time when it maybe would not have, so yeah. I,
Jessica Böhme: I wonder if it's, um, and I'd be curious to hear what you think as well, but I do wonder if it's, you know, because it's, it is humanizing the planet in a sense, or, or giving it the subject of agency. Um, and I wonder if that is something that's still, like you said, like to us probably it's, it's like the most normal thing.
Um, but I think to many people it is still very a weird concept.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. And even, even for me, I can see how there, there could be dangers in that, even in the way that I, that I do it. yeah, I think of these things as all connected and [00:23:00] sort of fluid and I wonder if you too do too.
And by that I mean the planet that in terms of trees and the ecological world that we're all part of, and then the social groups of different beings, humans, my own body, it's become hard for me to think of those as really distinctly separated. Mm-hmm. I think they're different and they have, you know, different regularities that hold together differently.
And we have to, to understand that. But I also think, of course, in that relational way we brought up before, it's all interacting. It's all co-creating and. That. I wonder if that is the, the idea that sometimes we miss when we talk about the planet as a living being because people do shut off because they, they're seeing it as, oh, we're calling the planet a human.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. It isn't
Andrea Hiott: quite the same thing. Do you know what I mean?
Jessica Böhme: Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. and I find it interesting because, uh, now that you said that there might be, [00:24:00] you know, a, a danger in that, I think another danger, let's say, or another pitfall might be that, you know, if we talk about the planning as like one and.
If it is one, then there's no, we can't really relate to it anymore because if we are, you know, so because we are distinct in some sense as well and if we lose that distinction, um, and so terms, that's what I miss in the relationship just 'cause, you know, it's like relationship as, and we are all one, but we are all also distinct.
'cause otherwise we, we couldn't even relate. Um, and so maybe if, if we see the planet, you know, justice as this one being and don't acknowledge that we are also somehow a separate entity as part of that, then we don't question maybe so much how do we want to shape that relationship? So, um, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah, that's a very good point.
And that is also what I feel like we have to learn a new way of talking about these things. And it comes from exploring it and, and the messiness of it [00:25:00] being okay that we are separate individuals in different, and that we're all co-creating. Whatever you wanna say together. The life, the planet, our neighborhoods, whatever.
It goes back to that same thing I think you felt with your PhD or, and that I still feel in some of your writing of this, having to choose between sides and it being so hard maybe, and even tiring to try to hold both of them at once and to even get people to open up their senses to what's shared, what's the shared area of those Yeah.
Of those things. Do you feel like you're trying to do something like that in in, in your work?
Jessica Böhme: Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Or, yeah.
Jessica Böhme: And I think it's something that I also, you know, it's, it's very much a process I go through myself to, like, we often say like, ah, we need to be able to hold paradoxes and ambiguity. And I still struggle with that some.
It's hard in so many ways Yeah. To actually be in that space. And, uh, especially I think like sometimes, you know, I, I tend to, [00:26:00] if. If a group of of people, and they don't have a specific example right now, maybe, maybe it comes to me a second, but if, if a group of people is, is going into, or if I read a lot and going into one direction, I often ask myself, okay, what could be the different perspective and how is that not complete?
And I try to bring the different perspective in, but. By bringing in that different perspective. I, I often notice how I'm like, okay, the, like this was the truth, but no, it's this and that. And I think it's the same with, for example, the mechanistic and the relational type kind of thinking about the world.
Like it is relational, but it also has a mechanistic point and that it has a separated, you know, or separation in, in things. Um, so trying to hold both of them, I think, yeah, for me it's always, always tricky and I'm still like, sometimes also we just point out, well it's that, but it's, isn't it also that?
And I'm like, ah, yeah, good point. I forgot about that in my, in my thinking, in writing. Um, and, and to live with that I think can also be quite, [00:27:00] quite tricky, especially with paradox is like one of the things that I've always been very prevalent in my life. And I think also one of the guiding questions for me are this idea between the knowledge and action gap.
Uh, it's referred to sustainability, science, or value action gap. Like, why do we value or, or know this, but don't act accordingly and. Eventually it's that kind of, and I'm still staying with it, but it's, it's sort of occurring to me like, if this, there is this gap which can't be closed at all, and there seems to be like, almost like two opposing sides, like maybe that's a completely wrong question.
And it's actually like something in between, like a third space that's, you know, bringing me a lot closer to, to an answer instead of trying to solve this puzzle, which actually has no solution. If that makes sense. Yeah,
Andrea Hiott: well said. And I think that's what we're tr all trying to do in our, our many different ways right now.
We have to develop a new language almost to be able to do this. And it does, it is hard because we just assume those [00:28:00] kinds of things, like you said, like there's a gap and it's so built into our language and our way of thinking that we don't realize we kind of, we, we did create that way of, of thinking about it.
And it could be that, yeah. Knowledge, and it could be continuous, it might be, you know, this is the mental, physical kind of dichotomy too, or the inner outer. Yeah. Maybe those are different assessments of a, a process that is the same. and how do we think of that? Because that means you can't make what is physical into what is mental and you don't even need to because you're assessing it from a different position.
It's like, yeah, you know, love. But to, I love that, to really hold that and understand that, I think it really requires all of us trying to help each other do it because it's, it's a very different future, uh, if we,
Jessica Böhme: if we learn to think like that. That's, and I, I also, what you just mentioned about the language, that's something that I also came across and, and constantly come across of like, you know, making verbs out of, or [00:29:00] making nouns into verbs and, and really, I.
Sort of developing that in, in my PhD I actually started out when I, when I wrote the, the final, um, piece and, and created all sorts of words, and then I got scared and I actually threw it all out and conventional, a more conventional training and just said like, okay, we need to reinvent new words. Um, and I think there is, there's something to it because it is alienating sometimes.
So, um, so I find that a, a thin line between like developing new words because we need a new language to des to actually describe what we are meaning. And at the same time, if people are coming to that who are not in that space or thinking that's space, you know, it's, it's very like, oh, what, what's that supposed to mean?
Um. So we could almost be talking like different, different languages.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. And I think we are, it's one reason I wanna have these conversations because I, for example, the way you used relational or I just, uh, had a nice [00:30:00] conversation with, um, bio Kamala. Mm-hmm. And he's also referencing similar people and the way this, this use of relational and is different from, for example, how I learned participatory sense making and this four e cognition and which is also all built on relation.
Relation up and down. And sometimes when we're just in conversation and we're using that word, we're, we're coming at it from different ways. Yeah. And it's not that those are bad, it's just that it opens up other paths if we understand what paths we've been on before. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But holding all that complexity again, it can be really overwhelming, can't it?
I mean, I know you also have felt a sense of overwhelm because. I think that's part of it too, is I, I wonder what your experience is of it, of, of you have to take it slowly and be gentle with yourself because you do start to realize how many layers and fractals and Yeah. Possibilities there are. And it can be, it can be overwhelming to [00:31:00] also hold firm in your place, which is important.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there was, uh, to me there was also this, what makes this topic so, so beautiful and interesting that it's like I'm uncovering layer whatever layer, it's like it's never going to end.
Andrea Hiott: No.
Jessica Böhme: Um, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: But you did kind of come back to philosophy. Mm-hmm. And this continuity, I feel it in the way that you talk about philosophy, because sometimes you talk about philosophy as living as a being.
Yeah. As as, I mean, I, I think of mind itself as. A process, a verb, you know? Mm-hmm. Of, of our consciousness, of our living that we're, it's how we're making our way. And I, I feel like in your, the way you talk about philosophy too is this, it's a livingness, it's, I think you even said sometimes you ask what is, what is, is my philosophy tired or something?
Yeah. Could you help us understand a little bit of how you've come to think of philosophy?
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. [00:32:00] Yeah. I, I'll try to, um,
Andrea Hiott: um, knowing that we can't say it all,
Jessica Böhme: um, yeah. I mean, I, when I started out, the way I approached it and when I saw like. The, when I really dove into like, philosophy also as using the term philosophy, like one of the things was, um, that I thought about is like, okay, I want to find my philosophy.
And I feel like this was one of the main drivers for a long time in my life without me even knowing. Like, uh, I wanted to find, okay, what, what's the philosophy I can live by? What are the principle of values that I, that I really want to see in my everyday life? And then I, I saw these two parts of like having a philosophy and living philosophically or living that philosophy.
So turning those, those values, belief systems, actually turning them into action. And I, and I saw like, okay, these two paths make like philosophy as a way of life or make, make philosophy tangible. Um, and then eventually I noticed like, oh, but. This having a [00:33:00] philosophy. I've been searching for the philosophy now for the last 10 years, and I still haven't found it.
And uh, it's almost like at one point I'm like, should I give up hope that eventually I'm going to find it? But then I noticed, well, no, it's so much more about this process of finding it is actually living philosophically and that's the beauty of it. And then I came to the con, uh, then it kind of, uh, noticed for the first time, well, philosophy is called love of wisdom.
So, but, but it's a love of it and not, not having and possessing it. And, and the same for me became apparent with philosophy. Like it's not something I have, but it's really something I, on the one hand that I do, but also something that has sort of a life of its own. Because I, as much as I have agency and as much as I can determine certain parts of that philosophy.
At the same time, it's always influenced by so many people, and it's always changing, adopting, um, to my circumstances. So, so I, I will never be able to hold it, and as soon as I try to do that, I feel [00:34:00] like it's already slipping away again. And now if you go to the great philosophers, um, who actually wrote down like a full philosophy, you know, for them it, it makes sense, but probably if you were talk to them now, it would also be very different.
Um, so what we get afterwards is like a, a momentarily, um, result from what they have written down. And Sophie Strand talks about this a lot, you know, about the, the difficulty of, of our cultures versus written cultures and written that it's then, you know, it's like it's something that's fixed, but in our culture would change the story over and over again depending on the, who's narrating it and, and the circumstances.
And I feel like West philosophy is actually sort of the same thing.
Andrea Hiott: Mm-hmm. That also goes to that notion of maybe. Our tools, our languages, and so on, being taken maybe too literally, you know? Yeah. So when we write something, it's, we think, oh, then it's, that's the system, right? Yeah. And it can never change.
And I guess that's what you're [00:35:00] talking about here too, is that we're starting to learn. It's all a verb and Yeah. Even the books that we have created are still going to be living and changing.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: And that's
Jessica Böhme: part
Andrea Hiott: of the overwhelm too,
Jessica Böhme: I
Andrea Hiott: guess.
Jessica Böhme: And, and what I noticed was, and at one point I asked myself, well, do we have, you know, if language is so, so limiting in that way, like maybe, you know, do we just need to talk in, in poetry and this, that, uh, more, more fruitful?
And, and I saw like, wow, I'm never going to be to be a poet. So, um, and, and I saw like, well, there's different layers to that because it's really like this. Also what I do with, or I think any of us do with our writing. You know, we do make this momentarily snapshot where we analyze a specific topic. And I think there is nothing wrong with it.
It really does help us to understand the world better, as long as we do not forget that it is part of a process and part of a larger content. So I don't think it's necessarily so much [00:36:00] about also in, in science, not only so much about how we do it, but rather how we think about it. Mm-hmm. And how we contextualize it or if we contextualize it at all.
Um, and yeah, especially in science, even though it's supposed to be, you know, this open inquiry where we continue to learn. I, I feel like the way it's often talked about or how people perceive it, it's like, well, it's science. This is so, like, it's a written law that will never change in this, uh, yeah.
Infinite in its in
Andrea Hiott: its value. Yeah. That's also part of that holding paradox or the of, of, of science being the best we have towards, you know, experimenting and finding. Finding truth, but also realizing everything we're studying and experimenting is changing too. So why wouldn't our science also have to Yeah.
You know, like you, you can't just pinpoint, nothing's gonna just stop. So we have to constantly keep refreshing all of that. But I wonder, like in your, you talk about health, you know? Mm-hmm. And [00:37:00] I wonder what's the process of care or what's your, where does health come into all this in terms of maybe even your own, I, I wonder about your own experience with the world around you and the way that you see the health of everything around you as related to your own health.
Mm-hmm. And how all this is also, of course, connected to what we're talking about in terms of the thinking, being part of that.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. Yeah. Um. The, the health aspect comes, came to me because, um, like if I ask myself what, what it is that I'm, I'm doing it for, it's like I'm not doing it even though I'm also doing it because I love doing, doing this work.
But it also, I always put it, or for me, it has this greater context that I want to do it for personal as well as planetary health and, um. So for me, I often talk about eco philosophy because, and this relates closely to health to me, [00:38:00] because I think any philosophy, like one thing that I want to, at least what I have for myself is like the, the goal is to always see it in this ecological context, which has planetary boundaries, which has a real physical reality to it, um, of right now a lot of species suffering.
Um, lots of devastation all around the world. So to, to never forget that this is the context that I'm, you know, moving in at this point in time. Um, and to put that in the forefront. And then with, with health, I noticed how, um, I have my, an autoimmune disease myself, and I noticed how a lot of the. Ways that I, that how I relate to that disease, how I approach it, uh, what I try to do against it.
Um, and the passes of healing if there is even such a thing. And there's a lot to say about that. But, um, that those are very similar and that I see the same patterns. Like playing out in my own life without immunity that I see also played out on a greater scale. [00:39:00] Um, and this could be very simple things such as I'm, for example, not, I can't eat certain foods, uh, but uh, you know, it doesn't kill me right away.
It's just, uh, I notice that it's not very good for me. But then I have sometimes really hard time, and I mean, all of us know this, you know, we, we grab food that we know is not necessarily the, the healthiest choice. And, and I see how, you know, that pattern. It's, it's just one simple example, but this is played out on such a grand scale across the whole planet with our consumption patterns where we do know, uh, this is not the best choice that I can make, but still I do that.
Um, so there, this knowledge action gap that I talked about, um, also became, or that was one of the starting points basically that got me into this like, ah, how I approach that is also how I see that same pattern play out, uh, on many different scales.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. There's all these meta patterns you talk about.
Yeah. The way we treat ourselves and the way we treat. Everything around us. Yeah. And vice versa too, right? The way we're treated and the way we [00:40:00] parameterize how treatment or healing is possible. Yeah. And I wonder what awareness, like that word awareness, or, I'm not sure which word, but in the knowledge and action mm-hmm.
Sometimes there's a space of recognition or of Yeah. Just becoming aware of the pattern, which is then gonna change it in a way. Have you, how have you experienced that?
Jessica Böhme: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Hiott: Part of it, or have you, I don't know.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think it's, it's one of the, the great possibilities. I recently read a good, uh, a nice book called Choice Points, uh, where it's, you know, this moment where we, where we do have the possibility to make a choice.
Um, and I think that's one of the great capacities of, of being a human. Um, at the same time. Because our agency is somehow distributed. I think there is, and this is again, a paradox I, I like to play with and kind of sit in of like, oh yeah, we have all this agency where we can make that choice. And on the other hand, is that choice really ever our own or is [00:41:00] it, you know, and, and tangle with so many other beings and, and context and space and time that it's emerging out of the eso mm-hmm.
In a way, uh, where it's actually not our own at all.
Andrea Hiott: And it's always both of those in the moment. Yeah. We always have a little bit of, of agency and we, we also have the agency to communicate about it with others. And that starts to perhaps change those other patterns. And yet, you know, if we're in a war zone or something, what we're in a completely different set of what's possible for us.
So again, it's that context. Um. Yeah. But I guess I was trying to get at the thinking part of it, that that mm-hmm. That I wonder if there's been some, 'cause you talk about practice a lot. Mm. And, uh, your institute is for practical echo philosophy, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which we should maybe talk about that a minute.
So I guess like with these practices, 'cause I feel like you, you've, you've been trying to help people and help find ways for [00:42:00] yourself and those around you to deal with this health that, that we want to move in a, towards a space of health.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: In our own lives or in the world, wherever we are.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. And,
Andrea Hiott: and that is a kind of transformation and you've been looking at practical ways to do that.
Mm-hmm. So what does that practice or practic practice practicality? I don't know what, which word Yeah. You would choose, but what does that bring up for you?
Jessica Böhme: Um, yeah, for me it's, and, and it's, uh, again, yeah. Kind of a power. Not, I don't wanna say paradoxical question, but it, I think it's a bit tricky and I think it's, it can cause, uh.
Yeah, different opinions on that. But for me, what came out was that, um, at one point when I started about like, how do I turn this philosophy into practice? Um, one of the ideas that I always had, I guess like, I need to do something, you know, somehow there's uh, there's a strong sense of having to do something big.
Uh, and I [00:43:00] think that's connected to how we live our lives. So it has to be like even something that I can snapshot or, or, or put on it has to be that I can photograph or, you know, scale to some degree. Um, and think in terms of action and practice in, in that terms of like. Something that I can share, it needs, uh, that only then it becomes real.
Um, and I think of practice a lot more as the integration into my everyday life and all these tiny micro decisions that I make, or choices that I make and how I show up, um, that are not necessarily possible to scale or to put on Instagram or whatever. And it can be, and, and talking about awareness. You know, it could be the way I, I relate to, to my dark, to the, to my neighborhood, to the people outside, to how I eat, how I, how I carry myself, how I show up to people, you know, am I present?
Am I not present? So all these micro things that seem, and I, I, like five years ago, I would've never thought that I'd be the person who says like, okay, this is a, [00:44:00] a necessary practice. Because I was all about like, it needs to be like something big and Oh really? Okay. We need to make like grand changes and, um.
Then eventually, I know it's, there's so much beauty in these, these little things, and I've always practiced, um, you know, in my own lifestyle you could say, um, a lifestyle that's al already in alienating what to some people. But I, I really found it in like things such as wearing just the same dress every day or so, what does it do to me?
What does it, uh, tell us about our relationships to fashion, to beauty, to how we think we need to be in the world? Um, and one thing I think about these micro habits is if I, if I do think about us as really being part of a complex system and more about the relationships and as me as just like a fractal and the, the relationships are, are that I play out just as a fractal of the whole, then, you know, that it, it needs a leap of face maybe in a, in a [00:45:00] sense.
But then I, I. But it's also on a logical understanding, like are the patterns that they play out. And all these tiny relationships are also the patterns that are played out on a grander scale. And there is no distinction. Like when, when, when is the scale big and when it is small. Like this is just so Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: That's a beautiful realization. I think that's a really, really powerful if, when you can understand that, that these Yeah, you can change the pattern of your fractal and it changes the patterns of all the fractals, even if it seems very slight. Yeah. You know, these little things somebody says to you at the grocery store or some little change you make, just maybe sitting down and taking a breath and, you know, these, these small things can really change the whole of your day.
And if you just understand that and then you think, you know, in these wider nested, uh, yeah. Levels, how that happens, it becomes a real source of, what is it? Of, of power, I guess. Of real power.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's at least [00:46:00] how I, how I perceive it. And it's also, um, you know, I I, I like this paradox of like, again, a paradox of like thinking like everything matters.
Like every tiny action I make matters. And then on the other hand, none of it, like on a very grand scale, none of it really matters. Um, but again, it's like sitting in that, in that exact sweet spot, um, and Exactly, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. How to hold that. And by holding the holding is a very important thing because you, if you hold it too tight, you're gonna, you know, asphyxiate it or kill it.
Yeah. And if you don't hold it tight enough then, or if you don't hold it at all, then you're not touching it. You're not in contact. And so it's, it's not there. So that, that is a very, very open, um, area of how we can all do this together. But have you found that you can understand that the small things matter so much and also that.
You can relax into being, um, a bigger part of life that [00:47:00] you're just a drop in the ocean. Have you been able, have you found that's gotten easier to Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Böhme: Um, I found, I find it easy. I still find it, I still struggle with it sometimes. And, you know, it's kind of a struggle with itself, isn't it? I mean,
Andrea Hiott: yeah.
Yeah. And,
Jessica Böhme: and, and there wish things, you know, that I see that, I mean, so many things are so heartbreaking and then there's like, okay, there's nothing I can do immediately. Like that's really, uh, still for me also, also a challenge. Um, and I, I think this is a bit where, where sometimes we talk about like, oh yeah, we need to think global and act local.
That's like a thing that, and I think this is also where we try to, we can try to keep the hole in mind while at the same time, you know, seeing, okay, what is it that we can actually do in, in our patterns? And, um. What I found when I, when I started in the field of sustainability, what I found really [00:48:00] crazy was how many people would, and I still to this day when I see how many sustainability scientists just fly around the world and they're talking about veganism, but then they go and, and eat in their heart, and there was such a contradiction.
I mean, we are all sitting with that and we are all contradictory to some degree. And I think that we can, it can't be otherwise because the systems we have created are of course, kind of enforcing or of at least, um, incentivizing the sort of behavior that is not necessarily conducive to, to life condition, great life conditions, but, um, to never see how, how we are part of that system.
Um, I think. It's not even necessarily judgmental, but it's also ing us of so much potential and so much power and empowerment in a way. When we think of Alia, we need to change everything around us, but never think about how we are part of that. Um, yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. And it can be very hard to think, well, okay, [00:49:00] everyone else is doing it.
It's not gonna matter if I decide to stay home and not fly to the conference. Uh, yeah. But then it, it does. And yeah. And then there's also, we need to find ways to be together in person again. So yeah. There's, there's a lot there. But I think I wanna ask you about how, how it feels for you, what, two, two things kind of stuck with me when you said that you used to want the big act, you know?
Mm-hmm. Or some, some kind of, I don't know. Was it about having attention or, because I think it relates to this optics too, of, of all of us kind of. Trying to get each other's attention, even if we don't wanna participate in that system or feeling like we need attention or likes or follows or whatever it is.
Yeah. Um, and I guess I wonder about you like also the other, the second thing was when you said sometimes it's just too much. Mm-hmm. There's, I, I have that too sometimes, where when you really look at the world and you really love it, you know, 'cause I think it's coming out of a [00:50:00] place of care, it's almost too much.
It's almost how can you possibly really see everything the way it is? Even the love sometimes is hard, you know, to feel so much to wanna do so much and then to feel that pressure. So I guess, you know, those, those two things don't seem to go together much. But you said you've changed and you're not necessarily looking for the big optics anymore.
Mm-hmm. Does it connect it to how you feel in, in, in, in that, that place, that place of care in any way? Has it changed, you know, how that, for you or. Hmm. Um,
Jessica Böhme: yeah, I mean the, I think the place that I still come from is, or is that place of care for the, for the whole. And I think that's beautiful how you, how you put that.
Um, but I think there is a, a difference between what, what do I actually care about? And then what's actually my [00:51:00] response to that. Uh, there was this famous scale of like, uh, we can, how far, you know, our circle of, um, concern is for people if it's just for our family, just for ourselves. If it goes beyond that, um, towards the whole cosmos.
And, um, if I. Don't really have any way to respond to that. Then there is a, a very important part of care lacking. Like Eric from, for example, he talks about love as like this active act of where we, you know, it's not a feeling, but it's, it's something that we do. Um, so I think this love for the planet will have to translate into something that makes me respond to it in an actual way that I, that I can, if that's mm-hmm.
Answering or, or relating.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. That's kind of what I'm trying to get at is, is where is it personal for you? What's, mm-hmm. Where do you see those, those lines connecting between these big, huge mm-hmm. [00:52:00] Try to save the world or, you know, we have to be sustainable and we have to change all these actions and then, and knowledge acqui acquisition, and then just you're a care for yourself and for your.
Immediate, you know, my dog is here for my dog and yeah. The plants that are outside, which I don't maybe take care enough of. Um, yeah. I just like, do you, do you see a relationship there in, for example, the way you've started the substack, you know mm-hmm. Um, that you're, that's a very personal space. Mm. But you're also talking about very big issues, and I can feel you sometimes trying to hold the tension there of, you know, if you write the, the title is like, this is gonna solve all your problems, then you're gonna get tons of people looking at it.
Yeah. Um. And Okay. And, but then how do you deliver that from a place that's care? Yeah, absolutely. Of care. Because the whole thing really is very caring. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. I wonder about this [00:53:00] if I, if I'm right to feel that sort of tension in the Yeah,
Jessica Böhme: absolutely. You know, it's, it's something that I sit with all the time and I think many of us do.
Yeah. Because it's like, oh, we don't want to participate in the system and that this is the, a tension. I think that, you know, the same pattern that plays out in so many systems, we don't want to participate, but still we are somehow part of it. Mm-hmm. So can we not, not participate? Um, and I don't have a, a good answer or conclusion for that, except of like, and this is where it maybe gets a, a bit, uh, I don't wanna say no.
I think it's, it's valid, but it's really something that I try to feel into. Um, so, and. To, to make it public or to to speak out. At least I try to point out like, okay, I do that because I know it's getting your attention. Mm-hmm. So I'm pointing out the, the things that I do in order to, to increase our awareness for that and to not try to trick anyone into, into it, but rather to, um, [00:54:00] yeah, to still engage with the people though.
Um, I, I had, I talked to one person recently and she said also like, uh, yeah, if we, if we keep talking only in a specific way, we just continue talking to the same people basically. So how do we draw new people in, uh, who we think, who we think might benefit from it? And I think this is where it comes to language again, also, it's like sometimes it needs this sort of different language and, um, I think that's the challenge of the, the written word of like.
Sometimes we feel like, ah, are we betraying ourselves if we know in this context we speak like this? And then in a different context we speak a bit differently. Um, but I don't think it it there's that way, but it's rather about the intention we bring into it, um, and trying to, to resolve these, these difficult issues.
And I think especially like, I mean, one of the, the things as we are in this time in between, you know, these different worlds, I think it's, it always needs to hold [00:55:00] both. Like on the one hand try to show like, okay, this is a real horizon and this is where we ideally want to get to, but we are. Here, somewhere in the middle.
And this is still, you know, the, the part where a lot of people maybe feel rather they're called to and how we speak to them. So how sometimes we, we can go here or we can go here and depending on that, it needs sort of a different translation maybe.
Andrea Hiott: Mm-hmm. I think, I wonder if you, do you think of it as an experiment A little bit in the same way you were talking about with the wearing the same dress, which maybe we should talk about that a minute.
You wear the same dress every day Yeah. As a kind of an experiment to see how you feel, see how others respond. Yeah. I'm sure you wash it and so forth. I'm sure everyone wants to know that it's the first thing.
Jessica Böhme: Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: That's the
Jessica Böhme: first thing everyone ask. Yeah. I have a try so I can wash it. I'm actually trying to, learning to suit myself at the moment.
Andrea Hiott: Okay. Oh wow. Great. You can sew your own dresses. Yeah. But is it, is it also in the, in the writings that [00:56:00] you're offering to people? Yeah. Are you also trying to experiment with. Yeah. Your own, you know, absolutely displacement. Absolutely.
Jessica Böhme: And I see this is, for me, an important framing that's become so, so prevalent that I see a lot of my, my life choices rather as experiments.
Um, I'm currently, uh, sitting with this concept of, of life as a living lab at the Living lab or real world laboratory is something that's a concept, especially in sustainability science, where you have, you know, over a long period of time, ideally like 60, 70 years, you experiment with certain, um, in certain settings, in a real life settings.
And then you do little experiments and you know, it has broader context of laboratory, real world laboratory. Mm-hmm. And um, and I see life in general, whether it's this real world laboratory in which I can experiment. And I think this whole notion of experimentation and. Trying to get feedback to see how it is and then adapting.
I think that's, yeah, for me, become very [00:57:00] important. And I see how that's making my life a lot more easier on the one hand, but also so much, such an important skill because in complex complexity or complex systems, that's, you know, we need that feedback and this experimentation in order to, to move forward.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Hiott: And to find different state spaces and Yeah. And I, I feel that in, in your work, in, in a way it connects to everything we've been talking about of, because there is a kind of a sweet spot of, you raise the word intention, but also experimentation where you're, and it is the place of holding paradox that I try to, that is hard to put words to, but where you are coming at it from a place of care.
But you're also understanding that you have all of these, like maybe you just want attention. Of course. You want readers. Yeah. And, you know, and that you're okay with all of that, and you're able to show that in the work, you know? Yeah. And there's something about that that I, I definitely feel in your, your pieces and in your practice and in, [00:58:00] in your projects.
Yeah. Um, but that, that space isn't easy, to negotiate. Do you worry about criticism? Do you worry about trying to please everyone? not so
Jessica Böhme: much to be honest, because for me it's, um. It's so obvious myself that I'm doing it. So even if someone points out to me like, ah, yeah, you're losing clickbait, or, ah, yeah.
And I didn't fly for a long time, uh, I think for the past five years or so, but I, if I were to step on a plane again and I'm, I will likely soon because I want to see friends in the us. Um, you know, if they pointed out, I, I, I can only admit it. Like it's not, uh, you know, I, I see, and I'm definitely not seeing all of it.
We all have our blind spots, but a lot of the things that I'm, where I am thinking like, okay, this is not how I would ideally love to have it. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm happy actually when people point that out rather than, oh, that's
Andrea Hiott: good. That feels healthy. Defensive [00:59:00] about it. Yeah. I think we have to go pretty soon, but I wanted to ask about this word, wild.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's, what's the wild, because it's rewilding, it's wild health. Yeah. And, uh, I love that word. Wild. Yes. I wonder, yeah. I wanna hear. Wanna hear about it from you.
Jessica Böhme: Um, it has different angles. So one of them is that I, I love the world wild too. I, I think in my own life, like I've always have had a sort of a wild aspect to my own life.
So it feels personal in a sense. It's also, I, you know, I, I, there is no such thing as wild life. Um, and there was a whole discussion about that. But nonetheless, it has this first intent or inclination that we, we hear into, and that's what I love. And the third point is that, um, there is this book where he talks about wild problems and the way he describes wild problems are basically complex problems.
And I think wild is a good, um, d explanation, just of the world we live in right now and the state of the world. Uh, it, it seems wild [01:00:00] and it's probably always been like that, but um, yeah. So those are the
Andrea Hiott: three angles. Yeah. That's good. And also feeling there's a book I can't. I have it somewhere. It's, it's like women who run with the wild.
It's a youngian. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know this book. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's also that kind of sense of wildness, which I like a lot. Yeah. And I guess I wanted to also ask you about your artwork before we go. Mm-hmm. Because I love the artwork that you do, and it, you are doing it right?
Jessica Böhme: Yes.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. What are you also, have you been doing art your whole life too, on the side from mechanical engineering and sustainability science and
Jessica Böhme: Not really, but it's, uh, I, I do love, uh, I always wish that I could, I could paint or draw, and I'm not talented in that way at all, but I never really tried it either.
Um, but, but I love to look at beautiful things and I, I couldn't really find pictures, uh, that would go well with the article. So at one point I just started [01:01:00] to use, uh, pixel tomato a bit and really just. From a very amateur perspective playing with it. And it's become part of the, the process of putting my care and my expression of the article, like into the art world, which is not, you know, cognitive, but rather just put music on and get into the flow of trying to express on a different scale of what I want to say.
Um, so it's become part of an important part of the process actually. Um, yeah, I'm
Andrea Hiott: glad to hear that because it feels like it and it, it feels like it's a part of the writing. Yeah. Wow. I'm,
Jessica Böhme: I'm happy. Very happy to hear that. Thank you. Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: And I think it also does some of that holding we've been talking about too, because sometimes you can say things with those photos that you can't necessarily put, you know, into words.
So Yeah.
Jessica Böhme: And I just recently started to, um, you know, wonder 'cause I always felt a bit of a tension because I was using, you know, pictures from other people and bringing that into a new collage. So lately [01:02:00] I've started to. Take the whole picture of some of the main elements and, and put them within the article to show where it's actually coming from.
And it feels a lot more aligned and also got me this, uh, kinda show me out. This is one of the 10 or one of the things that I, I love to bring with these collages, these new contextualization, which, you know, create walls in a way. Um mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrea Hiott: Yeah. And it, it does do that even on a subconscious level sometimes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, um, is there anything that you wanted to bring up before we go? We didn't talk about the Institute for Practical Echo philosophy.
I don't know if you wanna introduce that or anything, or anything that you Um,
Jessica Böhme: yeah, I mean, I'm, I. Always happy if people are, are interested on, on working. Also, just being related to the institute, uh, seeing where possible co or collaboration is possible. And we are starting out, just starting out. We are, just two people right now, so, so very small.
Um, and one of the ambitions that I, I have with it is that, uh, to [01:03:00] really bring this idea of living philosophically, uh, to life. And, and one thing that I have been sitting with a lot and is this idea of, oh yeah, why do we need philosophy and living philosophically? Like is it for personal planetary health, this for vital life or peaceful life or, or what is it for?
And at one point I noticed like, ah. It is about living philosophically in itself. Like it, it's, that is the, the thing already. So it, it's, yes, it is for a peaceful life. Yes, it is for an adventurous life or whatever, how you, however you define a good life. Um, and I would love to see that at one point, um, in my, in my life to, to really be a value in itself, um, and something worth pursuing.
Um, and yeah, I hope to contribute to that with the, with the institute. What's a philosophical
Andrea Hiott: workout? Um, is that trying to work out all the stuff we've been talking about. And, [01:04:00]
Jessica Böhme: um, so, so one of the things that I, or one of the ways that I think about it is, I mean, it's just starting out. We started this.
Philosophy gyms last year.
Andrea Hiott: Um, I love that idea. Philosophy gym. I mean, that's a wonderful kind of melding of inner and outer and mental and physical and all that.
Jessica Böhme: Yes, yes. Um, and, and when it started out, um, we're like, okay, it's about like, how do we bring our philosophy into our everyday life? Like, this is what it's going to be about without really knowing what, what that even means.
Um, and and the way it turned out though, the group that we have performing there, is that it really became, um, this collective sense making, uh, sessions where certain topics that all of us care about deeply, we would, you know, try to make sense of it, um, in all different ways. And I think this is what it's been developing into.
I mean, there's different aspects to it. And, um, yeah, I'm still in the process of, of developing that, [01:05:00] um, where I just, uh, started a project, um, which is funded by the European Union. Across, uh, five different countries where we develop philosophy gyms for regenerative futures in small and medium enterprises.
Oh, wow. It's a long word. That
Andrea Hiott: sounds wonderful. But what is that exactly?
Jessica Böhme: Yeah. And this is what we just started in January, uh, really where we are now trying to develop philosophy gyms and the form four companies. And for me, I think the aspect that I would like to, to have in there is this idea, and now coming back to the paradoxes and, and simplifying, but of finding a philosophy like where are we actually coming from?
Um, understanding what are other people's philosophies, how we can we then collaborate, which these other philosophies, um, or these other ideas, um. Then also bring that aspect of a bit, what you talked about yesterday, different ways of knowing, um, because all of them are forming our philosophies. Um, and then third aspect is, which I think is relevant for companies, you know, which I [01:06:00] notice are often sitting with the tension of like, uh, these are the ethical decisions I would love to make, but these are the realities in the system that I'm facing.
And there is no blueprint and no final idea of how to go about that. So how can we find ways to engage with these or, or help companies engage with these issues? Um. So these are three, three of the core ideas at the moment. Um, and we'll see what it develops into.
Andrea Hiott: And do you think bring in this experimental approach to that?
Yeah. Even, yeah. 'cause it does seem simple but profound to just actually have a space where people work out, workout Yeah. Ideas together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And notice their ideas and, you know, to, to have a space where you do that as a company or as individuals or as a group of friends, you know, living, living the question.
Yeah. And one,
Jessica Böhme: one of the things that we are also doing a, a test one with, uh, caucus. It's called, it's a platform very well, uh, checking out. And there [01:07:00] we are also running a philosophy gym over seven, seven weeks. Um, to see sort of experiment a little further with that and see what. Philosophy gyms ideally incorporate, and also coming back to what we talked about earlier about the measurement.
How could we measure a success of a philosophy gym, uh, and measure the immeasurable and the quality that maybe goes into it, and that I've experienced so far in these spaces. Um, and sort of what Noah bat calls warm data. You know, how can we, how can we maybe translate that, uh, further? Um, so this is another experiment that this is taking.
Yeah,
Andrea Hiott: I like that. And also thinking of measurement differently in a dynamical way that we were saying. So that, you know, even when you're just assessing your own philosophy, it's a kind of a measurement and measurements are very helpful. And we need these measurements and these maps and these metrics.
Yeah. But also not taking them as so seriously as we were saying before, that, that [01:08:00] as if they're never gonna change. It's, it's gauging where we are. On this part of the path and the next part of the path is gonna present maybe something slightly different, it's a different kind of approach, I guess,
Jessica Böhme: too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm looking forward to see where it's, where it's going. Yeah. Well
Andrea Hiott: I, I mean, I love all the ideas. There's so many, there's so, it's so rich. So I send you a lot of support for that.
Okay. I have my dog here, so, oh, oh, I can't see. What kind of dog do you have? Ah.
Jessica Böhme: Oh,
the haircut a little bit.
Andrea Hiott: Well, um, thanks for all you're doing. I really enjoy your substack. I'm so happy to share it with everyone. And the philosophy gym idea is great too. And yeah, thank you. Good luck with everything.
Jessica Böhme: Thank you to you too. Uh, looking forward to, to continue learning from you. And, uh, thanks for by having me today.
Thank you. Bye-bye.
Andrea Hiott: Bye.