Bringing Forth Worlds with philosopher Ezequiel Di Paolo and Mirko Prokop
Episode #67
the exquisite tensions of autonomy and interaction, hosted by Mirko Prokop
Andrea Hiott and
Aug 02, 2025
Exploring Autonomy, Autopoiesis and the Enactive Approach with Ezequiel Di Paolo
Mirko Prokop talks to Ezequiel Di Paolo about the enactive approach in cognitive science and its roots in Francisco Varela’s work on biological autonomy. They explore the ideas of autonomy and autopoiesis, the deeper meaning of enaction, how biological, sensorimotor and social dimensions of embodiment drive the ongoing, creative process that is human becoming, and what this implies about the meaning of love, authenticity, and the importance of staying true to your questions.
Ezequiel is a Research Professor at Ikerbasque, the Basque Science Foundation and member of the IAS-Research Centre for Life, Mind and Society at the University of the Basque Country as well as the Centre for Computational Neuroscience and Robotics at the University of Sussex. He is known for key developments of the enactive approach and has published numerous articles and books on this and related topics in cognitive science and philosophy. Most recently, together with Evan Thompson he has reedited the new, annotated edition of Francisco Varela’s book Principles of Biological Autonomy, first published in 1979.
00:00 Intro by Andrea
05:02 Varela’s Principles of Biological Autonomy: From First Encounter to New Edition
11:25 Autopoiesis and Autonomy
19:20 Enaction: Bringing Forth a World
26:38 The Co-Construction of Organism and Environment
33:46 Dimensions of Embodiment
38:35 Enactive Becoming
43:57 The Primordial Tension of Participatory Sense-Making
52:32 What’s Love Got to Do With It?
1:00:36 Authentic Becoming
1:04:40 Staying True to Your Questions
Links to mentioned work by Varela & Co:
Principles of Biological Autonomy (Varela, F., E. Di Paolo and E. Thompson (eds.), 1979/2025, MIT Press)
The Embodied Mind (Thompson, E. Varela, F., and Rosch, E. 1991/2018, MIT Press)
Organism: A Meshwork of Selfless Selves (Varela, F., 1991)
Patterns of Life: Intertwining Identity and Cognition (Varela, F., 1997)
Life after Kant: Natural Purposes and the autopoietic foundations of biological individuality (Weber, A. and Varela, F., 2002)
Links to mentioned work by Ezequiel & Co:
Autopoiesis, Adaptivity, Teleology, Agency (Di Paolo, E., 2005)
Participatory sense-making: An enactive approach to social cognition (De Jaegher, H., and Di Paolo, E., 2007)
Sensorimotor Life (Di Paolo, E., Buhrmann, T., Barandiaran, X., 2017, OUP)
Linguistic Bodies (Di Paolo, E., De Jaegher, H., and Cuffari, E., 2018, MIT Press)
Enactive Becoming (Di Paolo, E., 2021)
F/acts: Ways of Enactive Worldmaking (Di Paolo, E., 2023)
Mirko Prokop is currently a PhD student at the IAS-Research Centre for Life, Mind and Society at the University of the Basque Country (UPV/EHU).
Ezequiel A Di Paolo is a full-time Research Professor at Ikerbasque, the Basque Foundation for Science. He also has affiliations with the Centre for Computational Neuroscience and Robotics at the University of Sussex. His field of research covers enactivism and embodiment in cognitive science
Ezequiel A Di Paolo
Photo credit: Lily Schwartz (check out her awesome YT)
QBD Summary:
This episode offers a rich tapestry of insights into philosophical and scientific exploration about how we, as human beings, bring forth worlds. Mirko Prokop (currently doing his PhD in philosophy) has a lovely discussion with Ezequiel Di Paolo, a prominent figure in the field of enactive cognition, a key area within the broader scope of 4E cognition—embodied, extended, enactive, and ecological.
Their conversation touches on the seminal work of Francisco Varela, particularly the annotated reissue of "Principles of Biological Autonomy." This book, now widely available again thanks to a translation by Ezequiel and Evan Thompson, provides foundational concepts that have significantly influenced enactive cognitive science.
Main words here are: Autopoiesis and Autonomy
Ezequiel explains how autopoiesis describes the self-producing nature of living systems and extends this to autonomy, which encompasses a broader range of self-individuating systems, beyond just the cellular level.
Throughout the discussion, there is an emphasis on the interconnectedness of bodily processes and their environments. This is part of the Enactive Approach to Cognition, which points out that cognition is not merely the internal processing of external realities but is a dynamic interaction where organisms actively shape, and are shaped by, their surroundings.
This concept and all the work that has gone into it from many of the people we’ve had conversations with on Love and Philosophy, reimagines the traditional divide between perception and action as it explores a mutual co-creation of agent and environment.
As they discuss these topics, Mirko and Ezequiel touch on some of the other episodes, such as the discussion with Elena Cuffari and Shay Welch, and the discussion on Complexity Fatigue and the Third Entity with Rebecca Todd, Penijean Gracefire, and Shay. All these touch on the complex dynamics between individual autonomy and the influence of social interactions.
Another person Ezequiel has worked with on these themes, especially related to participatory sense-making, is the philosopher Hanne De Jaegher. We’ll be posting a conversation with her next episode.